The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

Its about punishment Franbern and nightowl. The desire to punish all those stupid anti-vaxxers because they are threatening the very fabric of society. It’s not about getting as many people vaxxed as possible, which is actually what we want, its just about showing that we’re much cleverer than them and more willing to save our fellow man, we’re in the right and they’re in the wrong.

So what about the people that are frightened because they believe they’ve heard about side effects? Punish them!!

What about people who are concerned about long term effects? Punish them!!

What about people who don’t follow every twist and turn of the pandemic and maybe just don’t realise how important it is? Punish them!!

Because trying to explain the facts better and win them over is much harder and doesn’t allow anyone to sit on the sidelines polishing their halo.

I like others do not understand people who refuse the vaccine, in the past I have respected those who refuse vaccination for flu etc. I am aware that some are exempt and that others have had serious side effects from the covid vaccination. However this is a global pandemic!!!! We have a close family member who eventually after very heavy persuasion had the first two vaccinations and is now refusing the booster! He had no vaccine side effects. We also have family members with cancer one who has a terminal diognosis and four small children -they have all been vaccinated. You are correct Franbern, many people who believe conspiracy theories are well educated, we know one and that's a fact . Bizarre !!!

I wish everybody would get vaccinated, and can even accept that you might be barred from certain roles (care of the extremely vulnerable for example) if you refuse. However, being vaccinated does not mean you can't catch the virus or infect other people, even if your own illness is likely to be much milder. Is anyone really willing to withhold treatment from the unvaccinated?

Alegrias1

Its about punishment Franbern and nightowl. The desire to punish all those stupid anti-vaxxers because they are threatening the very fabric of society. It’s not about getting as many people vaxxed as possible, which is actually what we want, its just about showing that we’re much cleverer than them and more willing to save our fellow man, we’re in the right and they’re in the wrong.

So what about the people that are frightened because they believe they’ve heard about side effects? Punish them!!

What about people who are concerned about long term effects? Punish them!!

What about people who don’t follow every twist and turn of the pandemic and maybe just don’t realise how important it is? Punish them!!

Because trying to explain the facts better and win them over is much harder and doesn’t allow anyone to sit on the sidelines polishing their halo.

That is your interpretation, but certainly not mine.

No for me it is about irrationality, and the common good.

I am talking about those who stand outside of school gates or post ridiculous claims on social media.

It is my way of pushing back, by showing how foolish their claims are.

Franbern:

'Obese and type 2 diabetes comes immediately to mind, as does sports injuries, drunk/drug induced illnesses' - none of those are a threat to the health of those with suppressed immune systems and pre-existing conditions.

Are you saying that the vulnerable have to accept increased risks, longer waits, poorer treatments - because of the 'rights' of the selfish?

Yet our own NHS is still not fully vaccinated.

That's fair enough WWM2. But if we got to the stage of only targeting/fining/withholding treatment from the extremists at the school gates, how do we differentiate them from the people who are just not convinced? Or are just frightened?

Or shall we just sanction everybody to make sure we scoop us all the extremists, just in case?

Fining them or whatever doesn't show how foolish their claims are, it plays into the hands of the conspiracists who are trying to say that the state wants to control our lives.

We have not had such a medical crisis in living memory. We have been lulled into a false sense of security by decades of medical progress on infectious disease prevention. It is a shock to the system to suddenly find how powerless we are in the face of this virus.

Some of the anti-vaxxers just cannot seem to grasp that we are faced with a whole new scenario - that mother nature is asserting herself and we are not as invincible as we might have thought. The "I am fit and have a good immune system" brigade have not grasped that the goal posts have moved.

As for those who believe the conspiracy theories - they a re barking mad.

There is a false dichotomy here (well, several, but I'll just mention this one)

Not having a highly vaxxed population means that there is more Covid about and so people have to wait for other treatments. True.

The only way to deal with this is to criminalise the unvaxxed. False.

Alegrias1

That's fair enough WWM2. But if we got to the stage of only targeting/fining/withholding treatment from the extremists at the school gates, how do we differentiate them from the people who are just not convinced? Or are just frightened?

Or shall we just sanction everybody to make sure we scoop us all the extremists, just in case?

Fining them or whatever doesn't show how foolish their claims are, it plays into the hands of the conspiracists who are trying to say that the state wants to control our lives.

Hyperbole.

I’m not suggesting any of those things. I am arguing what I think is a more rational case.

We all pull together, just as we all do in a conventional war.

Make no mistake this is a war we are fighting - a biological war, and we must use every tool at our disposal to rid ourselves of this enemy.

Not hyperbole.

Hyperbole is suggesting we charge people for medical attention and force them to have medical treatment against their will.

How does marginalising people even more and ignoring their concerns mean we are all pulling together? Specious wartime analogies don't cut it, sorry.

Alegrias1, criminalise - no, of course not - but persuade them, limit their choices, make their lives difficult, why not?

Alegrias1

Not hyperbole.

Hyperbole is suggesting we charge people for medical attention and force them to have medical treatment against their will.

How does marginalising people even more and ignoring their concerns mean we are all pulling together? Specious wartime analogies don't cut it, sorry.

But I’m not am i?

Look I must get on I have roses to prune and it is a dry mild day.

I’ll rejoin later.

'wartime analogies' may not apply - yet I'm still shocked by those applying 'normal' thinking to a highly abnormal situation.

When you get back WWM2 I'd be interested to hear what you think we should do - serious question.

Meanwhile Greece is to make vaccines compulsory for all over 60’s.
Those not compliant will be fined £85 a month.

Astonishing!

I do not think anyone should be refused treatment, however barking mad or dangerous they might be.

Whilst not agreeing with anti vaxxers in any way I am increasingly concerned as well about the authoritarian approach of Governments. So people in Greece will pay the £100 fine, then what, they still haven't had the vaccine.
I agree with momb to charge people for their care is the start of a slippery slope.

I do think people should be made more aware of how much medicine and treatment costs, even more so as the NHS is slipping away from us and people should stop taking it for granted.

nightowl

Franbern I am very frightened by people’s responses to those who don’t have the vaccine. I think we are seeing how easily people can take up extremely authoritarian positions and history tells us where this can lead. There have always been diseases with public health aspects but I am not aware that there has ever been a suggestion of compulsory vaccination ‘to protect others’ or sanctions for non-compliance. This is not a world I want to live in.

There have been, at least in other countries, serious disincentives. We lived in Norway many years ago and my daughter would not have been able to attend school without a TB vaccination.

Riverwalk

Sago I'm sorry about your SIL and hope he makes a good recovery.

Of course it's everyone's right to refuse the vaccine - some people are hesitant and have concerns and need reassurance but that's not the case with the anti-vax rent a mob, they make crazy claims, are anti-science and spread disinformation.

Re: the anti-Vax rent-a-mob.

Just because you are anti-Vax doesn’t mean you support this action!

My daughter has been sucked into this! It’s like being indoctrinated by a cult. There are so many themes that have been stitched together to come up with a whole platform of non-linked and misquoted documents. It’s full of half truths and preys on people’s misery, insecurities and lack of trust in the establishment. This has been built on to form a coherent whole. Once someone has been sucked in it’s proving impossible to shift their mindset.

The following comments are not related to the quoted post:

I don’t think anyone should be denied medical treatment and I’m extremely concerned that vaccines are being made mandatory in Greece and maybe Austria. Many of our ailments today are caused by lifestyle eg. Type 2 diabetes, alcoholism and other drug related addictions, heart disease, bowel cancer, liver failure.

As Sago points out some people are severely affected by the vaccines. One of my grandchildren has severely disrupted periods with blood clots etc. which is being investigated.

ayse Nobody wants to acknowledge an alternative point of view.

The reality is we are all part of a huge medical trial and we have zero come back if anything goes wrong.

I am by the way double vaccinated.

I am reluctant to have my third.

Och away, I might report you Sago for spreading misinformation.

Get your booster, stay alive, stop believing the anti-medical propaganda.

I appreciate the irony of my post

mumofmadboys

If we charged anti vaxxers for their medical care by the same reasoning obese people and smokers would be charged

I agree momb plus those who play sport of any kind and activities such as pot-holing, climbing, etc.

It’s a slippery slope to go down.
I and all my family have been vaccinated and boostered if age appropriate and in time all of us will have been.

But I’m not a fan at all of mandatory vaccination. What would we do? Bang on their doors and pin them down?

I don’t know the answer. Inducements maybe? at this late stage might work?