The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

In my mind the true way to sort out the conspiracy theorists and the genuinely scared is to do what some other countries are doing.
Vaccine passports. No passport no entry. It would have to be a genuine passport though so that it cannot be forged.

Athenia I haven’t checked Christine Cotton’s analysis yet but will do so. On the VAERS site people can report any symptoms they have had after receiving a vaccination. It’s important to note that the site states that any reports of symptoms after vaccination cannot be considered as being caused by the vaccination. I believe that people have to click a disclaimer box to show they have understood that fact. Sadly it seems that misinterpretation of the information on VAERS is the source of all the genocide claims.

I’ve had a look at the VAERS website. Whilst I think it’s statistically sound I do have some concerns about methods of data collection and interpretation for those who are not well versed in interpreting statistics.

I can’t find her methods for verifying reports of adverse affects eg medical confirmation. So unless somebody can point me to that I have to assume that anybody who is anti ax could make numerous false reports.

Secondly, I think the correlation between vaccination and cause of death is questionable. There doesn’t seem to be any control group to compare with
eg an 82 year old man who died of a cardiac infarction after receiving vaccine. But cardiac infarction in an 82 year old is not an unusual event.

A woman in her 30s who died during delivery of her third child, three months after receiving vaccine..

To attribute these events to the vaccine, without referral to normal statistical likelihood, is doubtful at least.

It also strikes me that in expressing statistics in percentages can mislead. Eg 5% had this adverse reaction. That is 5% of those who reported to VAERS. Not 5% of those who received the vaccine.

It’s interesting but at the moment actually fairly meaningless.

Peasblossom Exactly

Presumably Christine Cotton as a biostatistician is fully aware of these factors and extremely well versed in interpreting statistics.

And so it starts again. There is so much animosity and dare I say hatred on these threads and I really think some people just like to throw a bomb into the room and watch it explode!
Some people do not want to be vaccinated for whatever reason they may have...leave them alone., it is their choice. At the moment we still have SOME free choice. Don't hold your breath at this rate it won't last much longer. Its the same with the face mask debacle, all those screaming and shouting (behind their masks) answer this. If masks are so effective why does Wales, Scotland and NI still have such high case numbers when they have never stopped wearing them. What about the explosion in cases in Germany and other EU countries where they have never stopped wearing masks.
As for the idea of more boosters no thank you. I am not going to be injected with a 4th one. I have developed hives since having my vaccines, at the booster when I mentioned this she said oh that's on the list of 'severe reactions' ! look it up on the comirnaty leaflet.

*Susan55
I also think it is important to point out here that the 'vaccine' being given out so freely at this time is NOT the same as any other 'vaccine' anyone might have had in the past - such as measles, chicken pox, mumps, etc, etc. The Covid vaccine is a completely different technology and still very much in experimental stages on such a large scale. So I can't follow any argument that suggests that if you have previously been vaccinated against flu, malaria, tetanus, or whatever, then this is no different.

It IS different. To call it a 'vaccine' is a misnomer and a little misleading for the general population because it gives the impression it is the same, and it is NOT.

Oh how I wish people wouldn’t keep posting nonsense about the vaccine being ‘experimental’. It is NOT. Claims that vaccines are “experimental”, have skipped animal testing and have not completed initial research trials are ALL false.

This was a claim made in a Facebook post entitled   “6 facts about the 3 vaccines” and has been widely discredited. According to the post, all vaccines are considered experimental. This is not true – they have all been put through standard safety testing before being rolled out to the public. 

Both the United States and UK have authorized the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines for emergency use, while the former has also authorized shots by Johnson & Johnson; the latter by Oxford/AstraZeneca. 

Emergency use authorization (EUA) in the US and UK has been issued as a result of the severity of the pandemic. When the pandemic is over, the EUA will cease and vaccine manufacturers will need to apply for full approval.

I wonder how many lives the willingness of anti vaxers to believe this rubbish and worse, to try to get others to believe it, has cost.

My brother developed pains in his arms and legs the day after his 2nd vaccination, he now has to take a heart tablet and steriods daily.
Many women have had altered menstruation. What else is not yet known I wonder.

nightowl

Presumably Christine Cotton as a biostatistician is fully aware of these factors and extremely well versed in interpreting statistics.

Oh yes of course she is,

I did say it was statistically sound.

But statisticians work with the data and methods of data collection have to be questioned if the conclusions are to be meaningful.

Of course she is very experienced and will be able to interpret her findings meaningfully. But I do think it is presented in a very complicated way that is open to misinterpretation in the public arena.

There is a meme doing the rounds of a long list of chemicals and the question “would you put these in your body?” to catch out the “I wouldn’t put chemicals in my body” anti vaxxers
(the catch is it’s apparently the chemical composition of an apple…)

@Athenia. The VAERS website has a disclaimer to the effect that anyone can report anything and just because someone has developed a health problem or has died after the Covid vaccination, does not mean that they are linked.

SueDonim

Kandinsky

Haven’t got a problem with people not wanting the vaccine - maybe they’re worried about side effects?
People have died after being vaccinated.

My daughter gave birth to a 9lb baby less than twelve hours after being vaccinated.

I assume your DD was pregnant? If not, that is one hell of a side effect!

Casdon

On a slightly more positive note, it said on the news last night that people are still coming forward for their first vaccination, and that the numbers had increased since the Omicron news, so it is a diminishing pool of unvaccinated. I think it said 300,000 in the last week, although I can’t find that referenced anywhere.

According to my family in Germany it is the same there. Although the incentive is the fact they are not able to visit hairdressers, shopping centres etc without a valid vaccination pass. It affects sick pay too, non if you’ve not been vaccinated, a medical certificate, not printed off the internet, is available for those who cannot take any of the vaccines. This has a knock on effect, apart from the fact many walk-in centres were closed, in that people now are having to delay their boosters because of so many wanting their first vaccinations. Really interesting how they are handling this. www.dw.com/en/covid-new-rules-for-the-unvaccinated-in-germany/a-59261647

mumofmadboys If we charged anti vaxxers for their medical care by the same reasoning obese people and smokers would be charged.

Not such a bad idea perhaps?

Pretty sure a 9lb baby was close to term anyway.

Just on the topic of Christine Cotton.

How many of us had heard of her before her analysis was reported on UKColumn?

Unfortunately, not all scientists/biostatisticians/doctors are created equal. She certainly has the background but then there are many scientists who have the qualifications but in whom we cannot place much trust. There’s Michael Yeadon, for example, who used to be a VP at Pfizer, but is now completely anti-vax. James McCormick, who sold bomb-detecting diviners to the Iraqi government, although they did not work and were just, basically, sticks. Then there’s the guy who thought you could turn base metal into gold.

Its difficult sometimes to tell if the analyses and interpretations of data are valid, but generally if a piece of work is published on UKColumn and not a serious, peer-reviewed journal, then the chances are that it is not a robust analysis. Also, just because a scientist is right about one thing is doesn’t mean they are right about everything.

The base metal into gold guy? Isaac Newton.

Just to put my two penn’orth in again -
If you travel abroad to certain countries there are requirements for vaccinations against serious diseases, such as yellow fever, typhoid, hepatitis A. Babies and children are vaccinated against diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, hep B, meningococcal group B, pneumonia, measles, mumps, German measles (rubella), flu. Teenagers now get vaccinated against HPV, and some meningococcal strains. (I may have missed some out!) Here in the UK adults over 65 get vaccinated against flu, pneumonia every year, and over 75s against shingles. Don’t you think the scientists MIGHT just know what they’re doing with their knowledge of diseases, viruses and vaccinations? HIV killed 36 million people worldwide, and even now there is no vaccine, although various drugs will allow those infected to lead near normal lives. We should be sooooo grateful for the vaccine instead of the “I’m all right Jack” mentality. We have to protect ourselves to protect others. I have lost 5 among my friends and family to Covid. My sister has been in hospital for a year with heart and kidney damage from Long Covid, and probably not able to come home because of the shortage of vaccinated support workers to care for her in her own home.

Pammie1

*Susan55
I also think it is important to point out here that the 'vaccine' being given out so freely at this time is NOT the same as any other 'vaccine' anyone might have had in the past - such as measles, chicken pox, mumps, etc, etc. The Covid vaccine is a completely different technology and still very much in experimental stages on such a large scale. So I can't follow any argument that suggests that if you have previously been vaccinated against flu, malaria, tetanus, or whatever, then this is no different.

It IS different. To call it a 'vaccine' is a misnomer and a little misleading for the general population because it gives the impression it is the same, and it is NOT.

Oh how I wish people wouldn’t keep posting nonsense about the vaccine being ‘experimental’. It is NOT. Claims that vaccines are “experimental”, have skipped animal testing and have not completed initial research trials are ALL false.

This was a claim made in a Facebook post entitled   “6 facts about the 3 vaccines” and has been widely discredited. According to the post, all vaccines are considered experimental. This is not true – they have all been put through standard safety testing before being rolled out to the public. 

Both the United States and UK have authorized the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines for emergency use, while the former has also authorized shots by Johnson & Johnson; the latter by Oxford/AstraZeneca. 

Emergency use authorization (EUA) in the US and UK has been issued as a result of the severity of the pandemic. When the pandemic is over, the EUA will cease and vaccine manufacturers will need to apply for full approval.

I wonder how many lives the willingness of anti vaxers to believe this rubbish and worse, to try to get others to believe it, has cost.

Yet another post stating that the vaccine being experimental is nonsense.

Whatever you might like to believe, the effects of this vaccine on the body are not yet fully known. This is a FACT. The research on these vaccines is ongoing. Data continues to be collected. Research continues. Giving out vaccines, while the results of their effectiveness and safety is unknown, is allowed only if it is for emergency use. That means that if not for emergency use (i.e. panic use - we don't know what to do so we will do this anyway - what the hell, let's try it anyway) suggests that if it there was no emergency, it would be deemed acceptable that the vaccine NOT be used on the general public until approved by all.

Also, why seek for full approval AFTER the pandemic has ended. Why can't it be applied for now? Would it be because they haven't got enough data collected yet? Why would that be? Because it hasn't been around long enough to determine? Because they are too busy? What?

Also, if these researchers honestly did believe that the vaccine was 100% safe for all, why did they first ensure immunity from any liability should some poor individual/s suffer any consequences of taking the vaccine?

To state this is rubbish is a personal opinion which you are entitled to and I respect that. However, I have to add that it does come across as being a bit dismissive and a purely psychological tactic to gain strength in any argument which goes against your own narrative.

I think anti vaxxers are very foolish and perhaps don’t understand how vaccination works or just how many lives vaccines have saved since their inception. However I do think that in a democratic society we must allow freedom of choice or we run the risk of an authoritarian regime misusing power for their own ends as history has frequently shown. Vaccination does not stop transmission but lessens the impact of the virus for the vaccinated. Therefore antivaxxers mainly harm themselves. There are of course vulnerable people (including those whose vulnerability may be self inflicted eg the obese, smokers) who will of necessity need to self isolate. Covid is in any case rapidly becoming endemic in the population just like flu. We cannot sacrifice hard won freedoms just as we cannot shut down society completely because of the beliefs of a minority.

Our generation was the first to be vaccinated against polio and TB amongst others. I don’t recall that we had an issue with “long term” problems etc. We were sensibly grateful to have a defence against these viruses and bacterium, and what a success they have been.

So Susan55 we can't say nonsense and we can't say rubbish...

How about drivel?

You have taken some carefully chosen facts and built a completely fictional narrative around them. For example I remember, along with other posters, completely refuting the "no liability" misconception about a year ago. I don't have the energy any more.

Alegrias1

So Susan55 we can't say nonsense and we can't say rubbish...

How about drivel?

You have taken some carefully chosen facts and built a completely fictional narrative around them. For example I remember, along with other posters, completely refuting the "no liability" misconception about a year ago. I don't have the energy any more.

.

I had to smile Alegrias1. I love your humour. I'm wondering who has built the completely fictional narrative? It's a good question that perhaps we should ALL answer truthfully! Me, you, everyone ......

I think it's a shame that people are so divided on this when what we all really want is to have free, healthy, happy lives. That's what we are all fighting for really, which means there isn't really any fight at all between differences of opinion.

If you want to tell me I'm speaking drivel you are welcome to do so - it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It has made me smile though so that's a good thing towards boosting immunity, with or without the vaccine.

I think its a shame that people still think their opinion trumps science. Its like the Enlightenment never happened.

I think Covid has taught us lots of surprising things about different people,how thoughtless some are,having spent my whole working life looking after patients,which I loved.I’m now sad to see how this apparent uncaring behaviour shows in anti-Vac people.Hope of you are safe this holiday season.

We neither can nor should refuse to treat anyone who is ill, whether or not they could be said to bear some of the reponsibility for their illness.

We treat patients with lung cancer, whether they are or have been smokers or not, to give an example and both health care and social security is available to those who cannot work due to addiction to drugs or alcohol.

We do, however, have the right to insist that those who refuse the vaccination do not go around infecting others.

Most of us are old enough to remember a time when you could not legally marry if you were suffering from tuberculosis or a veneral disease and those suffering from veneral disease are still obliged to inform their sexual partners and to refrain from sex until there is no risk of them spreading the disease.

In our lifetimes discussions have been waged as to whether those who know they have HIV could be sued for infecting sexual partners with the disease.

With these facts in mind, I have no problem with either compulsory vaccination, or preferably just refusing to allow the unvaccinated to be indoors with the rest of us, but I most certainly draw the line at refusing to treat them or demanding they pay for their treatment if they contract Covid 19.