The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

We do, however, have the right to insist that those who refuse the vaccination do not go around infecting others.

Do we have the right to insist that the vaccinated do not go around infecting others? Because although the risk is less, it can still happen.

Do we have the right to insist that those medically unable to have the vaccine do not go around infecting others? Or are they off the hook because if they infect us its somehow not their fault?

I think this marginalisation of the unvaccinated as though they were unclean is just unacceptable. I know most other people don't agree.

Alegrias1

I think its a shame that people still think their opinion trumps science. Its like the Enlightenment never happened.

I don't believe that the Enlightenment happened. I read on the internet that it was a hoax.

That is the best post I've seen all day...

* To state this is rubbish is a personal opinion which you are entitled to and I respect that. However, I have to add that it does come across as being a bit dismissive and a purely psychological tactic to gain strength in any argument which goes against your own narrative.*

So we’re resorting to personal attacks to try to support posting utter drivel now are we ? I have no ‘narrative’ at all - unless you consider having no time for people who spread dangerous anti vax theory a narrative. I had Covid earlier this year, before I had a chance to be vaccinated. It was the most unwell I have ever felt - I really thought I wouldn’t survive it. I contracted it again in July after being double vaccinated - it was like a mild dose of flu, absolutely nothing like the first time round. That’s all the proof I need that the vaccine works. As far as I’m concerned the risk from the vaccines is minuscule when compared to the risk from Covid, so I do take issue with people spreading misleading information intended to stop others from taking it - it benefits no-one.

Sago

It is everyone’s right to refuse the vaccine.

My SIL a very fit and healthy ex athlete ( team GB) is currently seriously ill with a blood clot on each lung after the second Moderna vaccine.

Their 1 year old and 7 year old will not be vaccinated.

Either very unlucky or nothing to do with the vaccine... the tiniest minority but still happy to scare monger folk and refuse to vaccinate their children. Have you any idea what covid can do to folk??? My doctor daughter sees it still first hand how critically ill the unvaccinated admitted to A and E are and some of them not surviving. She and her colleagues are sick of the unvaccinated and their pitiful, selfish excuses

I don't think it is a tiny minority unvaccinated in the USA. Estimates vary but I have seen figures of 30%. The anti-vax movement has been going for several years in the USA and has gained momentum during the pandemic, according to 'The Anti-Vax Conspiracy' documentary on C4. It is worth watching.

Pammie1

* To state this is rubbish is a personal opinion which you are entitled to and I respect that. However, I have to add that it does come across as being a bit dismissive and a purely psychological tactic to gain strength in any argument which goes against your own narrative.*

So we’re resorting to personal attacks to try to support posting utter drivel now are we ? I have no ‘narrative’ at all - unless you consider having no time for people who spread dangerous anti vax theory a narrative. I had Covid earlier this year, before I had a chance to be vaccinated. It was the most unwell I have ever felt - I really thought I wouldn’t survive it. I contracted it again in July after being double vaccinated - it was like a mild dose of flu, absolutely nothing like the first time round. That’s all the proof I need that the vaccine works. As far as I’m concerned the risk from the vaccines is minuscule when compared to the risk from Covid, so I do take issue with people spreading misleading information intended to stop others from taking it - it benefits no-one.

@Pammiel

I'm sorry if you feel I was personally attacking you. I wasn't really attacking you; more reacting to your suggesting what I posted was rubbish. And I'm sorry to hear that you have suffered Covid but which helps me to understand where you are coming from.

You said that you contracted Covid again for a second time after the double vaccination, giving you all the proof you need that the vaccine works. I do believe the vaccine works; I don't actually have an issue with that. I have to wonder, though, if your second bout of it was milder because you had already gone through the motions of the virus and your body had already developed an immune response. I have seen in various sources that the body may well be more immune after contracting and overcoming Covid so it may be difficult to know 'for sure' whether you had a mild second bout because you had already developed some immunity or if it was indeed the vaccination which helped. Not that I'm suggesting the vaccine doesn't work. Far from it actually; I do indeed believe the vaccine helps anyone developing severe covid.

Please don't believe that I'm spreading dangerous anti vax theories; I'm not. I just have questions about the safety issues, that's all. Unfortunately I have come across several concerning reports of really quite bad reactions to the vaccine and that makes me rather wary of it. I'm coming myself from a position where I had an illness which affects one in 100,000 people 4 years ago. It has left me with constant pain and disability. I used to believe that something bad would always happen to 'someone else'. When I was younger I used to think, no, that won't happen to me, that will happen to some invisible person somewhere on this planet. But I changed that view after having three occasions in my life where that invisible person turned out to be 'me'! That changes one's perspective a little. Now, whenever I see statistics that say adverse reactions only happen to xxx percent of people out of xxxx number, I tend to not be quite so ... what word should I use..... cocky?... about the chances of me being the one having that bad reaction, because of those three occasions when it turned out to be me. So I'm cautious. I find I can't just simply 'trust' whatever someone dishes out to me, especially when there is a strong bias involved. And let's face it, someone is becoming extremely rich dishing out these vaccines and boosters for every mutant virus that rears its head. How many coronaviruses are there? 200? How many variants of Covid are we likely to see in the future? How many boosters over time?

And what about natural immunity. I'm one of those people who thinks our creator got it right and maybe it's best not to mess with 'perfection'. I don't believe scientists, no matter how much they have studied, know more than our creator on how to keep the human race going. We are already equipped with some very good immunity systems in place. Should we really be messing with that? I have to question that.

I do tend to research things myself for answers. I have to say I'm particularly wary of media blocking highly respected and educated scientists who try to publicly state their concerns about the safety of the vaccine but who are blocked under the guise of misinformation. To me, that is not science as science should be. Science is supposed to look at all the facts, all the data, all the reports regardless of whether they go in their favour or not or whether they follow the general narrative or not, as the case may be. All views should be looked at, in my view.

So no, I'm not really anti vaccination; just a bit wary and need answers and would prefer honesty when it comes to getting those questions answered. Unfortunately, in hiding certain information from the general public, I don't believe we are always necessarily getting truthful facts or all the information that should be available; well meaning though they may be. I like the whole picture before I make a decision and I don't feel we are being allowed to see the whole picture.

Oh Susan you can’t rationally believe that our creator made us with perfect immune systems when humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years.

Long before vaccines or any interference with perfection.

It’s a belief that runs contrary to all the evidence surely.

Peasblossom

Oh Susan you can’t rationally believe that our creator made us with perfect immune systems when humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years.

Long before vaccines or any interference with perfection.

It’s a belief that runs contrary to all the evidence surely.

@ Peasblossom

Hmm, interesting question you pose there.

If humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years, without any vaccinations or interference, then it would seem, as you have just said, that the creator did indeed create perfection if only for the simple reason that the human race is still going, thousands of years later, after however many viruses and whatever else existed during that time. Our creator clearly got something right!

I'm presuming these anti-vaxxers won't b seeking hospital treatment then if they fail ill with Covid!!
The vaccinated I fee are keeping them safe! No one wants to be having extra vaccinations if they can help it, but we all have to do our bit to try and overcome this awful pandemic or at least try!!!

Susan55

Peasblossom

Oh Susan you can’t rationally believe that our creator made us with perfect immune systems when humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years.

Long before vaccines or any interference with perfection.

It’s a belief that runs contrary to all the evidence surely.

@ Peasblossom

Hmm, interesting question you pose there.

If humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years, without any vaccinations or interference, then it would seem, as you have just said, that the creator did indeed create perfection if only for the simple reason that the human race is still going, thousands of years later, after however many viruses and whatever else existed during that time. Our creator clearly got something right!

Latest info from South Africa is that with Omicron, you are more than 3 times as likely to get Covid a second time if you only have protection via a natural infection, compared with protection via vaccination.

Somebody dropped the ball there designing that immune system.

I don’t suppose the people who died or their relatives felt he’d got it right?

Peasblossom

I don’t suppose the people who died or their relatives felt he’d got it right?

It's an interesting question though - if humans had 'perfect' (whatever that actually means) immune systems what would that imply for the rest of the biomass?

Without any evidnce at all I'm swithering between 'none at all' (after all the vast majority of organisms - by number - are nematode worms) and 'it would throw the whole ecosystem out of balance'.

It would be like that horror film where an injected nanobot healed a man of cancer and then went on to modify his body so that he was indestructible. He grew gills and stuff.

Oh hold on, I think I’m going down the anti vax route ??

Peasblossom

I don’t suppose the people who died or their relatives felt he’d got it right?

Peasblossom:

I want to answer your last post but felt a need to answer this one first:

My thoughts about this:
If you believe that people don't exist after death, then they would no longer have any kind of consciousness whatsoever so would apparently not even know they had died and therefore wouldn't have any thoughts at all on the matter.

If you believe that consciousness continues after death (which I do believe) then they would realise that it was 'their' time and happily go home, free of their physical body.

Relatives are a different story altogether because yes, they suffer. I know about that because I lost my dad in 2015, my brother in 2016, my sister in law two weeks later, my dog in 2018 and ten months ago lost my mum, for whom I am still grieving. Do I still think the creator got it right? YES! . It's very hard when people close to you die; very hard. But if there is one thing we all know for sure. Life is a terminal condition; none of us get out alive! We are all going to die. But this doesn't mean there is anything wrong with our immune systems. No-one, to this day, has been able to replicate life as we know it.

I know what you mean though

There nothing as likely to get me on my hobby horse than someone pontificating about science and what it “should be”. I’m also struck by the people who say that things are being kept from us, while being able to dredge up the worst examples of poorly implemented science studies that are lurking out there in the furthest reaches of the web. And I include the bizarre UKColumn in that.

I’m afraid Susan55 unless you have qualification in medicine, epidemiology, public health or the like, all the googling you do doesn’t amount to research. It amounts to someone being exposed to the wild and un-validated ramblings of the misguided and the charlatans. And while you say you’re not an anti-vaxxer, casting doubt on the vaccines and how they have been developed and released to the world just does amount to being anti-vax. You’re not encouraging people to work things out for themselves. You’re casting aspersions on the thousands and thousands of real scientists, who know what science really is, who have developed, tested and implemented the scientific wonders that are the Covid vaccines.

How many coronaviruses are there Susan55? 200? Actually there’s 7. Might be good to work on those research skills.

If humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years, without any vaccinations or interference, then it would seem, as you have just said, that the creator did indeed create perfection if only for the simple reason that the human race is still going, thousands of years later, after however many viruses and whatever else existed during that time. Our creator clearly got something right

No, we've just dodged a few bullets over millions of years.

We may not be so lucky next time.

Ah well Susan it’s not possible to argue rationally or persuade when it belief.

That’s it really. ?

I'm not anti-vax. I don't know why the unvaccinated are being called selfish. You can still spread covid, vaccinated or not. You can still get it whether vaccinated or not.

There are some people who are really scared of the rush that the vaccines were made in, about incomplete trials, trials being unblinded, etc.

There are people who are scared as hell about the long term effects of this unknown technology of the jab - say in 10, 15 or 20 years. Can you tell me?

Other friends have had terrible reactions and long term ones. Unexplained neuralgia, constant chronic fatigue, strange illnesses, strange rashes. Things that their GP can't explain. 2 friends can not work anymore because of crushing unexplained pain throughout their bodies.

Informed consent to have the jab means fully informed - knowing the full ins and outs of the jab, its side effects and long term consequences. No, we have not been fully told. They say it is safe. Um..... again... what will the effect, if any, be on our bodies in 10 or longer years from now. No, so again we are not getting fully informed.

Sadly the truth is out there but propaganda is being ingrained into us to think that we are being told the truth when it could in actual fact be lies. Why are whistle-blowers who speak the truth being slammed and blotted out from doing so - because truth hurts. Sadly the media hypes everything up too with scaremongering. Big pharma is everything these days, all about money. People being told lies that ivermectin is a horse medicine = but it actually was originally made for humans. Why is big pharma not looking at repurposing ivermectin as they have done for other drugs - because it is cheap.

Just read about a Mr Mr. Sun Ng, who was at deaths door, on life support in a hospital in the US. His daughter and physician did research and wanted to use ivermectin as the last resort. The hospital refused. The daughter took it to the court for an emergency hearing and ruling. Twice the court ordered the hospital to give the man ivermectin (bearing in mind his chances of living were next to nothing). By now the hospital was in contempt of court for refusing court orders. The 3rd time the judge ordered and said that the chap's physician had to be given access to the patient, no matter what, to give the chap ivermectin. What was the harm in trying if the guy's chances of living were virtually nil anyway, it was not going to do any harm if the guy was going to die. Needless to say, the chap started to get better and is now out of hospital. If you want the story, google or yahoo it: Dying COVID-19 Patient Recovers After Court Orders Hospital to Administer Ivermectin Mr Ng

I'm not advocating ivermectin but it's just an example of how big pharma blinds the minds of people.

I am sure some people who don't want the vaccine have looked at the bigger picture. They may respect your viewpoint but also respect theirs - more so if they are scared or have reasons as to why they are s*^t scared. Try to get into their heads and minds as to why. Probably you can't because you haven't walked in their shoes.

I am really trying to see both sides of the coin for those that choose the vaccine and those who choose not to. I am listening to those who have had it and those who haven't but I'm not judging those that haven't - because I've not walked in their shoes.

This world is a mess with so many people fighting and arguing. Best of friends or family members turning on each other just because of a b%*%y jab. It is really sad. We should be rallying around and supporting each other without bickering and arguing.

I have a relative, a professional sports person, they have had COVID, not hospitalised, but insists that they will never have the vaccine, and not only them but most of their team members haven’t been vaccinated either. I couldn’t understand their reasoning, but it seems that many professional sports people will not agree to be vaccinated. Over many conversations, the reason is that when they travel or play they must stay in a bubble, they are tested before and after all games, they obey all Covid rules on quarantine. I have stopped arguing now, as I know I will never change their minds.

Why do people keen to tell us that they not anti vax start spouting the most awful rubbish then quote from the X-files?

I'd rather be liberated, I find myself captivated

The research on these vaccines is ongoing. Data continues to be collected. Research continues.

Informed consent to have the jab means fully informed - knowing the full ins and outs of the jab, its side effects and long term consequences. No, we have not been fully told. They say it is safe. Um..... again... what will the effect, if any, be on our bodies in 10 or longer years from now. No, so again we are not getting fully informed.

These are two arguments that I see over and over again on anti-vax/conspiracy theory discussions.

First; do people expect doctors, scientists etc. just to stop collecting data, analysing results, side-effects, doing research as soon as they start using a treatment in the human population? Of course not; they continuing to do it and will keep doing it for many years as is always done with drugs or vaccines. It doesn't mean that the vaccine is 'experimental'!

Secondly, how can we be told what the long-term effects will be when literally NO-ONE in the world has been taking it for ten years! You would have to wait ten years for this information (and the scientists and doctors will keep on keeping on researching). Forgive me, but isn't that obvious?

DD has a PhD in Biochemistry and one of her best friends is an ICU doctor. This is why we have all been vaccinated. Yes DD and her husband caught Covid from their children in spite of being vaccinated but her husband who has serious heart and kidney problems only had a very mild illness. Pre vaccination he would have been dangerously ill.

Anyone worrying about the speed of development or lack of testing should read Vaxxers and find out how it was done.

If humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years, without any vaccinations or interference, then it would seem, as you have just said, that the creator did indeed create perfection if only for the simple reason that the human race is still going, thousands of years later, after however many viruses and whatever else existed during that time. Our creator clearly got something right!

I am completely boggled by the above statement. Are you seriously suggesting that it was perfection for my father to be orphaned by the time he was eleven years old and to lose all three siblings and his niece, all to tuberculosis, within a few short years?

Because of that, I’ve been deprived of the pleasure of grandparents and aunts, uncles and cousins because of this disease. I don’t think much of a creator that inflicts such cruelty.