The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

I have been very pro-vaccine for covid thus far. Had both AZ vaccine in late February and May with very minimal side effects. However the Moderna booster which I was anxious to have asap, laid me out for 10 days or so. Fine on the day but next day heavy painful arm I couldn’t lift then chills in the evening bad enough that had my teeth chattering. Headache/upset stomach too. Worst of all was no sleep even AFTER taking painkillers due to severe joint and muscle pain. Then 2 days later chest pain which left me breathless as it was so painful to breathe. I knew if I phoned 111 I’d be told to call an ambulance so I didn’t. Pain in chest went within one day. 2 days later my right thumb went purple to its base but I have no recollection of any injury or knock to it.

Would I do it again. Yes, but NOT to Moderna,

Baggs

A lot of people can’t think logically. I hope it’s because they’ve never been taught but it could be simply low intelligence.

Perhaps the Omicron variant has been named for the anti vac/mask brigade. It is, after all, an anagram of moronic. I can’t understand those who complain about still having to wear a mask after having 2 jabs and a booster-after spending nearly a year shielding I’ll do what it takes to have be able to get out and about a bit. The prospect of a yearly booster doesn’t phase me either as it would just go alongside the yearly flu jab I’ve had for the last 30 years. Having said that we’re all entitled to our opinions and views on keeping ourself safe

@Whitewavemark2

^Should the unvaccinated receive free hospital treatment for Covid?

We aren’t uncivilised, so yes of course they should.
Perhaps be charged half of the cost?^

I'm sorry, but IMO (other than those who CAN'T have the vaccine for medical reasons), I'd charge anti-vaxxers the FULL price of the treatment if they fell ill with Covid and then wanted treatment.
I could even be tempted to just give them the vaccine whilst they were in hospital coz they'd be having so many other drugs they wouldn't notice it!
Yes, I know, many would say that that's unethical but it's just the way I feel, I'm not a hospital worker so couldn't do it even if I wanted to but I just think these people are spreading the virus around, keeping it virulent in society for far longer than it would be if everyone (who medically could be) was vaccinated.
Grabs tin hat to wait for the fallout ?

honeypuss

I would like to correct your quote of my opinion. I later post, that no of course we shouldn’t charge the anti-vaxxer who gets ill with covid.

We are not uncivilised and I absolutely believe fundamentally in our welfare system. Humans are illogical, unreasonable, mad as boxes of frogs, but we have the capacity to be logical, reasonable, empathetic and generous. The way our NHS functions recognises all those strengths and weaknesses.

Long May it last!!

harmonypuss!!

I see a leading proponent of anti-vaccine - a chap called Marcus Lamb has died of covid in the USA.

Just think, he would almost certainly still be here if he had the jab.

glammagran

I have been very pro-vaccine for covid thus far. Had both AZ vaccine in late February and May with very minimal side effects. However the Moderna booster which I was anxious to have asap, laid me out for 10 days or so. Fine on the day but next day heavy painful arm I couldn’t lift then chills in the evening bad enough that had my teeth chattering. Headache/upset stomach too. Worst of all was no sleep even AFTER taking painkillers due to severe joint and muscle pain. Then 2 days later chest pain which left me breathless as it was so painful to breathe. I knew if I phoned 111 I’d be told to call an ambulance so I didn’t. Pain in chest went within one day. 2 days later my right thumb went purple to its base but I have no recollection of any injury or knock to it.

Would I do it again. Yes, but NOT to Moderna,

You are not alone in your reaction to Moderna. I had severe aching joints and fatigue for 24 hours. DH on the other hand said it was like having Covid all over again and suffered as you did for more than a week. I was extremely cautious about Pfizer and Moderna but was OK with AZ for the two primary doses. I’m not sure I’d be taking another booster of Moderna or Pfizer in the future.

I noticed yesterday on the BBC website that AZ have worked out why some people have blood clots. Hoping that AZ will provide a booster.

I’m also hoping that Omicrom willl turn out to be less dangerous even if it is more transmissible. Some are suggesting that Covid will die out naturally next year just as the Spanish flu did in 1918-1919.

Hmm! Omicron!

I have managed thank goodness to get my gd to have her 1st vacation she is 21 and was concerned about having the vaccine
After long conversations and as she starts a new job and also because we now have a new strain in the country she had it done, we went to a walk in clinic at Queen Elizabeth hospital and she had her first dose. The nurse told her that a lot of young people had come along over the last couple of weeks and she was glad to see her have it done. I went along with her to give support.
I know we get very angry with the public who won’t have it done but there will always be the underlying fact what will happen in years to come to us. We do put our life in the hands of the NHS and have to trust we come through it ok.
My DH and I have had all 3 and our flu vaccine.

Have read in the press about people going to covid parties in Austria where they try to catch the virus from infected people there. Also parents taking children to these parties. Apparently one child is in hospital and an antivaxxer died after attending. You couldn't really make this up - the level of stupidity amazes me.

A few days ago on twitter someone posted a picture of a lung affected by Long Covid. The person it came from had had a double lung transplant because of the damage long covid had caused.

I suppose that it might not have been genuine, but it was certainly not a pretty sight. I might share it for our anti vaxxers...

I think its probably the case that scary picture of medication and damaged lungs aren't going to convert any anti-vaxxers. The "true" anti vaxxers think its all a hoax, or we're all getting injected with microchips or something. So posting scary pictures might make us feel virtuous but its not going to make a blind bit of difference.

But if you think scaring people into getting medical procedures is an appropriate way to behave, crack on. The government probably agrees with you.

I’m really saddened by the rift I see developing in society and the restrictions being imposed all over the world on people who have made a choice about whether or not to have a medical intervention. You only have to look back in history to see where this type of segregation led in the past. Not everyone is an idiot or an anti-vaxxer. Some have made an informed choice, after willingly having many other vaccinations, and may have very valid reasons for not wanting this vaccination, or may have had a bad reaction to their first one and are reluctant to have any more (by this I don’t mean flu symptoms, which are expected, but scarier symptoms which are unusual, I know several people this has happened to). I know this virus is scary because it is completely random in how it affects people, but the vaccine is the same. I feel antibody testing should take more priority at this point - interestingly a friend of mine had no antibodies after 2 vaccinations a few months down the line whereas someone else who’d had COVID had them after a much longer time. I think we need to remember that everyone is dealing with this in their own way, I don’t think there is anyone who hasn’t suffered in some way, the last 2 years have been horrendous, and we all need to support each other going forward. Perhaps if some people get their way and the unvaccinated are all locked down when the virus continues to spread at least they won’t get the blame! I’m far more anxious about how people are being treated than I am about the virus at the moment. Whatever happened to ‘be kind’?!

It scares me the way people reply if I say anything on an anti vacc thread on Facebook. I just commented on a Boots the Chemist thread and a Telegraph one and I’m still getting replies on a daily basis from anti vaccer’s calling me stupid, misguided etc. Their use of language is very threatening and patronising. The life of the PM of Australia (and that of his children) has been threatened I believe because of the measures that he has mandated. This, along with the rise of the far right is really frightening me.

janieUK Thank you for such a balanced post.

The facts are though that even vaccinated people can get ill so they may well need to go into hospital and be pumped full of drugs the same as those who haven't been vaccinated. I personally don't feel we should be vilifying those who choose not to be vaccinated, it feels as if we are moving towards an apartheid system - the situation in Germany where unvaccinated people are refused entry to non essential shops and leisure facilities is outrageous and definitely discriminatory.

That makes even the nastiest comments on GN sound like a friendly tea party! I’m not on FB so have no idea.

But if you think scaring people into getting medical procedures is an appropriate way to behave, crack on. The government probably agrees with you.

I think much of the populace agrees with me. The perceived threat of Omicron seems to have boosted the vaccination programme...

I'm not altogether sure what the difference is between telling people that if they don't get vaccinated and catch covid they are much more likely to die, and showing pictures of nasty side effects... they are both on the 'scaring' spectrum.

I expect most people agree with you MaizieD and I expect all of us who have been vaccinated decided to do it because at some level we are scared of Covid.

But there is a difference between being scared of Covid and looking at pictures of things which are truly horrific. And its by no means clear to me that they work as incentives. A "real" antivaxxer will think they are just lies and ignore them, and other people could be scared witless. What's the point of scaring someone witless? What about people who can't have the vaccine? Is it OK to subject them to pictures of lung transplants and tell them this is what happens if you don't have the vaccine? I don't think it is.

Aren’t there horrific pictures of cancerous lungs on cigarette packets?

Same principle. They must think it works at some level. Maybe a nudge?

Yes, I thought of that WWM2. But there's a difference between suggesting to people that they stop doing something that's probably going to harm them, and showing pictures of things that could happen to them whether they have the vaccine or not.

And I'm really not sure it works. I think its an easy answer to think that if only the anti-vaxxers knew the truth, they'd change their minds. But I think its a lot more complicated than that.

janieuk I think you don’t really understand how the immune system and the vaccines work.

Antibodies are produced by B lymphocytes when they recognise infection. They are detectable during infection and for a time after infection until they die.

T cells carry a memory of infection and when they recognise it prompt the B cells into action to produce antibodies again. The vaccine implants that recognition into the T cells without infection taking place. So there won’t be any identifiable antibodies from the vaccine as there will be from a direct infection.

Similarly mass testing for antibodies will tell you if people are infected or have been infected in the past but won’t tell you if they have Tcell memory.

That not really enough to explain how it all works but I hope will prompt you to find out a bit more and not be concerned about antibody testing.

Janieuk : you gave a balanced post and you are correct all the arguments about people willing to have a medical intervention or not are causing a deep rift in society. All over the world now decisions have been made that those who have not been vaccinated are now subject to lockdown. A personal choice by any individual not to have the vaccine is met by the consequences of your a prisoner to your home. It has not happened in the U.K as yet although as far as the new variant Omicrom goes all I am getting from government, media is one thing everybody get out there for the jab. All media are saying is get that needle in your arm. There is talk about another vaccine that will have to meet the Omicrom variant although it will not be known for about three weeks.
In reality we have not got choices because one way or another everyone will get the jab and that is how it will be so why did the government not say that in the first place? it would have been so much easier. I know several people that have been jabbed but they are still refusing to rush out with
their fifteen year olds to have them vaccinated. Also I know some mothers with young children and they are saying they will not have their five year old vaccinated. It must still be a choice for these people.
In regard of this new variant and now new restrictions that are now imposed (wearing of mask in shops and on public transport) all I can say about that is it is not happening at least not where I live. I have been out and about everyday always with mask on and in the shops I see about five people wearing a mask and everybody else just happily going about there business unmasked. So tell me all these people without masks are like that because they are jabbed and see no need to mask up. It is all arguments and rubbish and personally I have heard enough of it all.

I love this portrayal of what it keeps to save someone. This should be all over the net.

I’m beginning to think that for some anti-vaxxers their resistance may be pathological and therefore only to be overcome by very devious psychological means, which themselves may be ethically questionable.

That aside, all the info I’m seeing about Omicron seems to suggest it’s not as
huge a threat as people feared at first.

And, after all, as Karol Sikora points out: “ Forcing the public by law to take a COVID vaccine is reprehensible.
It will tear society apart, cause unspeakable anger and set a horrific precedent. Choice, autonomy and freedom still matter in my view “

(My underlining).