Boris and the Ukraine.

But surely most of us acknowledge the influence of Russian money in the Brexit campaign? Aaron Banks, Farage etc plus everyone's bogeyman Cummings and Cambridge Analytica. If you acknowledge this volver, plus all the money sloshing around in the Tory party, why can you not accept the influence of Russian money in the Scottish Independence campaign? To my mind it is all part of the plan to isolate and split GB. Many people believe fervently in Scottish Independence, and many believe fervently in Brexit so you cannot condemn one group for being misled without acknowledging it happened to the other.

I have said on several occasions on this thread GillT57 that I agree that there was undoubtedly Russian interference in the referendum, and that they were probably trying to undermine confidence in the democratic process. I'm absolutely sure there was disinformation that could be traced back to Russian interference. I'm not an idiot.

But in no way whatsoever will I agree that they "backed" the campaign and were instrumental in making it happen. That implies that those of us who have worked for years to get to a situation where a referendum was happening were manipulated by the Russians all the way along.

That I won't agree with, and anybody who suggests it doesn't appreciate the motivations of the independence movement.

Casdon

tickingbird this is getting ridiculous.

This is what an unfounded allegation is:
Unfounded: where there is no evidence or proper basis which supports the allegation being made. It might also indicate that the person making the allegation misinterpreted the incident or was mistaken about what they saw. Alternatively, they may not have been aware of all the circumstances.

You’re wrong. Unfounded means having no foundation or basis in fact. I’ve seen David Baddiel live years ago - he wasn’t funny, in fact we left before the end and sat in the bar with several others not in our party who were of the same opinion. Therefore, my statement was not unfounded.

Allegation - a claim or assertion that someone has done something wrong or even illegal, typically without proof. Therefore, yet again, you are wrong. I have seen DB live and on tv and don’t find him funny.

Disagree with me by all means but don’t accuse me of of making ‘unfounded allegations’ please. Mr Baddiel may be a thoroughly decent man but I don’t find him funny.

It’s interesting that one of his shows was based around all his poor reviews. He must have had an awful lot in order to create a whole show but then, according to you, these critics were all making unfounded allegations.

I’ll leave it there as the threads derailed yet again into Scotland’s fight for independence. I’ll leave them to it,

volver Someone says that the Russian 'actively backed' Scottish Independence' and then you go on about
Are you really saying it was a Russian plot? That we were all either duped or wicked?

Russian money was behind the Scottish separatists in 2014

Which is why insinuations that the Russians were driving it are more offensive than you can possibly know.

I am sorry these are all gross over exagerations and misinterpretations of what has been said.

Let us put Scottish Independence in parallel with the election of Donald Trump. In both cases Russia was supporting them through both fake internet sites and cyber misinformation. In both cases some Russian money may have got through to support the different causes.

But in each case each campaign had many strong adherents in their respective countries, whether they had any contact with Russian money or not and also the majority of the money financing those campaigns, came from those who supported the ideas and lived and voted in the countries concerned.

So no one was 'duped' or anything else. Both were perfectly legitimate and popular causes, with almost entirely local support and finance.

It is possible that their was some misinformation and money round the edges that had a Russian source and yes, a few people may have had their vote influenced by reading information supporting it coming from Russian sources or paid for by Russian money, but I doubt it was sufficient to turn the vote.

Gross exaggeration does not help your argument.

I am sorry these are all gross over exaggerations and misinterpretations of what has been said.

Yes it is, isn't it M0nica. To say "Russian money was behind the Scottish separatists in 2014" is an awful exaggeration, isn't M0nica?

And I didn't say it. Someone else did. Maybe you could explain to them why it such a gross exaggeration. Given that I've explained how offensive it is.

No, it just means that money had been donated to the cause in an underhand way.

Oh, OK, Silly me.

So it's only an exaggeration if I say it?

I'm not continuing with this any more, as the thread has been completely derailed and I'm sure its my fault, no sarcasm implied.

I am not intending to offend you or any other supporters of Scottish Independence, but surely you can see the conflict in believing that Russian money was behind Trump, Brexit, funding the Tory party all recent societal upheavals but you will not accept that there was Russian money behind the Scottish independent movement? You are sincere in your beliefs in the independence movement and those who support Brexit and Trump no doubt feel the same.

OK, one more post, in case anybody thinks I am denying reality.

I have no doubt at all that there was Russian interference in the Scottish Referendum. I think it took advantage of the political situation of the time. They are exploitative and manipulative.

I do not think that the Russians were "behind the separatists", which implies that the independence movement was initiated, funded and driven by a foreign power. That's what is offensive. To suggest such a thing right at the moment, is not acceptable.

I do not think that the Russians were "behind the separatists", which implies that the independence movement was initiated, funded and driven by a foreign power. That's what is offensive. To suggest such a thing right at the moment, is not acceptable.

I don’t interpret that being ‘behind the separatists’ means initiating, funding and driving a campaign. I read it as being supportive of such a campaign, support which can take many forms. Let’s not overegg the omelette. Unless it’s true. ?

I am behind the Scottish football team. If they play in an international match I support them.

However I do not pretend to have been the person responsible for Scotland having a football team.

I am behind them, I support them, I back them.

Just like Russia were behind the "yes" side in the 2014 Scottish referendum.