I think this will happen more and more

CS has high testosterone because they have a condition which excludes them from female sport. I hate talking about this because people with dsd s have begged not to be dragged into it and also because in order to discuss it we have to talk about a medical condition which quite rightly the regulatory authorities need to keep private.

doodledog I agree that if a person , raised male with physical male attributes, including testosterone levels, heart, lung & muscle capacity then as a young adult, or older, identifies as female & competes in sport with non trans females it is certainly not " a level playing field ".
The other solution would be to do away with gender as a dividing " class" of athletes and base it on weight , height & qualifying speed/ distance etc. .
So m/ f running a 500m with height and weight restriction. ?
So many complex questions!

But its not just about height and weight, the differences between men and women include men have larger lung capacity, increased red blood production, different angle in pelvis, quicker hand eye coordination, and I cant remember the rest!

Galaxy

But its not just about height and weight, the differences between men and women include men have larger lung capacity, increased red blood production, different angle in pelvis, quicker hand eye coordination, and I cant remember the rest!

Then perhaps that could be a way forward. In future all athletes must undergo multiple tests to measure things you quoted above and would then be assigned (amazing word) to the group that matches their measurements and only be able to compete in that group. Cynically I think there’d be cheating in the tests wherever the chance arose.
They do their best to classify para-Olympians to make it fairer, but it isn’t easy.

Rosie51

He's only on testosterone suppression. No penile inversion or breast implants (not that I'm suggesting for one moment Lia should have either) so having achieved a full male puberty, if testosterone suppression is ceased then Lia's body would quickly make normal levels of T once again.

But I think they should should have the penile inversion, of they truly want to be a women.
OK it still won't make them women.
If he has a penis he's a man.
No such thing as a female penis.
Biology is biology.

A woman is not just a man with their penis removed. Sorry but you cant change sex whatever you do or dont do to your body.

But Galaxywhilst I do understand the issue of m/f lungs & heart etc. A small male of light weight would not compete equally against a taller heavier male in some sports.e.g boxing. so it does exist already

I've heard people saying "well you get tall women and that makes it fair if men compete against them"
Its bollocks.
Natina Navratrilova, who was often criticised for being too masculine and too big compared to the other female players has said that as strong and talented as she was, she still often lost when playing against her male bodied coach.

I remember when my son was about 14 we had (for fun) race in the swimming pool on hoiday.
He'd gone through puberty but hadn't yet finished having a growth spurt, so I was taller and heavier than him.
He beat me.
And he wasn't even trying.

Any male, like Liar Thimas, who's gone through puberty will have an unfair advantage.

I agree PECS, sports need to be segregated by sex and also by whatever other categories are needed, so you dont have 30 year old men or women in the childrens category to take an extreme example

"none of the SWS protesters had any objection to the transgender athlete Iszac Henig, who was also competing at the women’s NCAA Championships that day. That’s because although Henig “identifies” as a man, Henig is female and does not take exogenous testosterone, and therefore has no unfair advantage over other female athletes."

www.realityslaststand.com/p/gender-ideology-is-on-life-support

FarNorth thanks for the link, that's a good informative read. Apart from the fact the counter protestors didn't have too many facts to hand what stood out for me was
the gay rights movement never required anybody to adopt reality-denying ideologies, and that’s what gave it such strength. and that's exactly why gay rights shouldn't be used as an argument.

Rosie51

Actually it looks like if you dare to refer to the scientific fact that it is impossible to change your sex, you're a transphobe.
If you state there are only two sexes you're a transphobe.
If you say you don't have a gender identity you're a transphobe.
If you question people like Lia Thomas, a failed male swimmer who identifies as a transwoman to then become number 1, smashing the women's records, then you're a transphobe.
Think people with penises have no place on female wards, prisons, refuges, communal changing rooms, then you're a transphobe.
Think it's unfair that 'Business Woman of the year' type awards (categories created because females weren't regarded equally with their male counterparts) are awarded to trans identified males, then you are a transphobe.
Think females shouldn't have their terms eg woman, mother etc replaced by 'pregnant people' 'menstruators' 'cervix havers' against their will, then you're a transphobe.
Say sex and gender are totally different things and many people don't have any gender then you're a transphobe.
If you say anything should just be for females, then you're a transphobe. And the worst of it this is all said by people who claim to be so kind.
As for All the medical terms about anatomy are strictly devided into male and female and trans people either deal with being the gender we tell them they are or don't get the help they need. Well medical terms that apply to sexual differences about our biology are divided into the two sexes because there are only two sexes. I don't think anyone has told any trans person what gender they have to be, especially as many of us do not have one. They can have any gender they want to join and display, aren't we told there are 100 or more genders? Unfortunately they can't choose what sex they are, that was determined at conception where biology rules not man.

I agree with you completely. You have summed it up perfectly. ?

Thank you Rosie51
Actually it looks like if you dare to refer to the scientific fact that it is impossible to change your sex, you're a transphobe.
If you deny scientific facts that don’t suit you, you’re a TVG.

If you state there are only two sexes you're a transphobe.
If you deny biological facts because they don’t suit you, you’re a TVG.

If you say you don't have a gender identity you're a transphobe.

Who do we know at present who believes he can compel people to say and think what he tells them? Putin!

If you question people like Lia Thomas, a failed male swimmer who identifies as a transwoman to then become number 1, smashing the women's records, then you're a transphobe.

Sadly some misogynistic women support his actions by not condemning the fact that males are allowed to do that.

Think people with penises have no place on female wards, prisons, refuges, communal changing rooms, then you're a transphobe.

Think all those things are OK, then you’re mysogynistic facilitator.

Think it's unfair that 'Business Woman of the year' type awards (categories created because females weren't regarded equally with their male counterparts) are awarded to trans identified males, then you are a transphobe.

Agree that it’s right and you’re a mysogynist who discriminates against females.

Think females shouldn't have their terms eg woman, mother etc replaced by 'pregnant people' 'menstruators' 'cervix havers' against their will, then you're a transphobe.

Think those things are right, then you’re a TVG.

Say sex and gender are totally different things and many people don't have any gender then you're a transphobe.

* Sex is immutable and gender used to be an accurate description that reflected Sex*.

Now Gender is a word bandied around to allow people to pretend they can change sex.
* Saying you don’t acknowledge sex and gender are different is a belief . . . and who do we know who is presently telling people they aren’t allowed to believe the truth?*
Putin!

If you say anything should just be for females, then you're a transphobe.

If women say women aren’t allowed to have anything just for them they're discriminatory mysogynists

And the worst of it this is all these accusations of transphobia are said by people who claim to be so kind.

As for All the medical terms about anatomy are strictly devided into male and female and trans people either deal with being the gender we tell them they are or don't get the help they need.
Well medical terms that apply to sexual differences about our biology are divided into the two sexes because there are only two sexes.
I don't think anyone has told any trans person what gender they have to be, especially as many of us do not have one. They can have any gender they want to join and display, aren't we told there are 100 or more genders? Unfortunately they can't choose what sex they are, that was determined at conception where biology rules not man.

I agree with you completely Rosie51
You have summed it up perfectly.
Just added a few thoughts of my own. Hope you don’t mind.

And if women support the definition of all those categories as transphobic, or, don’t condemn the people who who believe it, then they’re misogynistic, discrimatory against females and a shameful example of womanhood and not kind at all!

If Trans and their supporters are so keen on being allowed to be heard, why are they invading a meeting, set up by biological women, to discuss keeping their safe spaces?

They were invited, provided there could be proper respectful debate, but just turned up outside and just caused such a ruck that the meeting had to be abandoned.

Police had to accompany the attendees to safety.

So, aren't biological women, with perfectly valid views, allowed to be heard in this "brave new world" we inhabit?

Are we to be silenced and just told how it has to be now? ?

(Apologies the link is from the DM, but it was the only one I could find without a paywall).

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10654579/Trans-rights-protestors-besiege-feminist-campaigners-meeting.html

What happened in Manchester is happening in every town or city where adult human females dare to organise meetings. It’s disgraceful but at least the attacks, bullying, attempts to shut down the debate are now being reported in MSM.

Iam64

What happened in Manchester is happening in every town or city where adult human females dare to organise meetings. It’s disgraceful but at least the attacks, bullying, attempts to shut down the debate are now being reported in MSM.

It’s horrifying.

And almost worse is the fact that this can be reported as one group of women disrupting the meetings of another.

We need words to mean what they say. Not what ‘some people’ believe. It’s not just the right to hold peaceful meetings that is at risk - it is the freedom of the press, and the right of the public to be told what is happening to women.

These shouting, bullying protestors, quite honestly, must have the brains of a rocking horse. ?

No one's genuine opinion or feelings ever got changed because they were being threatened, yelled at or abused.

If they had debated respectfully, with the biological women, both sides might have left that meeting with a better idea of each others feelings.

What, I wonder, gave them the idea that they had the right to prevent a perfectly legitimate meeting??

Was the meeting actually abandoned Diamond lily?
I didn't see that reported anywhere.

According to the news report, at the time, yes, the meeting was ended early and the police escorted the attendees, through the protestors, to safety.

There is a national site as below.......they can choose whatever they want to discuss........our park has these meetings....note
Standers Will Be Provided

www.astandinthepark.org/
WOULD YOU LIKE TO START A STAND IN YOUR LOCAL PARK?
Just send us the name of your park and be there on Sundays from 10-11am. We’ll put the word out and get you some Standers. Make a Stand…. and make some friends!

lemsip I looked at the website but I don't understand what they are actually promoting.
And what are Standers exactly?

Standing For Women organises public speaking events at Speakers Corner in London and similar spots in other cities.

youtu.be/bFK5yLXacTg

have a look. I know nothing more than what I posted....... There had been a gathering where i live so it was in the local news.......... seems to be anti this and anti that........ and it's national......standers are to start a crowd.... not good in my opinion

As I said, I did have a look.
There are quotes about having a lovely time with like minded people but I couldn't work out what they thought they had in common.
Maybe it's like the hippie love-ins, all appreciating each other's wonderfulness.

FarNorth

As I said, I did have a look.
There are quotes about having a lovely time with like minded people but I couldn't work out what they thought they had in common.
Maybe it's like the hippie love-ins, all appreciating each other's wonderfulness.

It might be like the 60's....when we all wore flowers in our hair lol
?