the law as it stands on sex

A transwoman swimmer who could have been asked to share the fourth-place trophy position on the podium with the natural woman who tied for the place, but wasn't asked - to spare his feelings. But what about the feelings of the woman who legitimately had as much claim to that position?

More claim as she was within the parameters of the class in which they were competing - adult women without an added testosterone boost.

You don't have to define or label yourself or let anyone else do it.

I’ve just had to do exactly that, on my census form.

VioletSky

I know you didn't say that Rosie

But it was more of a general truth announcement

Also I'm not angry at all.

Do you think it is ok to tell others who they are and how they feel?

If someone was doing that to you, what might happen if you believed them?

If someone was doing that to you, would that be a relationship you are safe in?

Think about it...

Anyway. Definitely not angry, just a bit sad really and that's a sign to go be happy elsewhere

Etiquette says if you quote someone the comment you make is to them. Why quote me to rebut something someone else said?
I don't tell anyone how to feel, that would be ridiculous. We all only know how we ourselves feel, which is why the 'feels like a woman' is daft. Who can know what every woman feels like? Is it one feeling?

Oh I get sad, I feel it all the time for the women who lose out to men invading their safe spaces, hospitals, sports etc etc.

Galaxy

No thanks I dont want to be seen as a default man.

Me neither.
So many misused words and phrases today.
1st
Woman can mean man
No. Woman means AHF not AHM.
(Simplified, for those who need it, Woman-is not a man or a male, she’s a female. Females are women. Males are not.)

2nd
Be kind currently used mainly by TW allies when they’re not being kind.

3rd
We don’t have biological needs we can’t control does that mean the poster feels it’s OK for TW to rape females because they are controlling their biological needs.

4th
not passive aggressive or sniping, meaning, both those might apply but it’s not being kind to say so.

5th
patronising-that still means the same often when someone is telling someone to “be kind”

6th
you do not get to tell other people who they are
implying that the right to do that belongs only to the person saying that.
7th
You deliberately misunderstand me
That’s not true. I don’t misunderstand you at all, I just don’t agree with you.

Smileless2012

No trisher it is wrong to say that woman has meant in practice the people who present as women and has always encompassed some women who aren't female.

There's no such thing as a woman who isn't female, they don't exist. Women does not encompass TW, it never has and it never will, which is why we have the definition TW.

I suggest you get over it.

Sorry Smileless2012 you may choose to ignore them but there have always been transwomen included n the term women. Just because you don't want them to be there it doesn't mean they aren't there and have always been there.

Transwomen is a comparitively recent term. In the past they were just women.Look up some transgender history.
They will continue to be included with women, because stopping them from doing so is not practicable.

I daresay people will continue to falsely describe themselves as virgins, too, when it is impractical to ascertain the truth without inconvenience and annoyance and accusations of invading their privacy.

Oh my goodness Elegran I hope you aren't using my words against me?

I haven't advocated for women to lose safe spaces and I certainly see the issues in sports as I've said many times.

I have no idea what everyone else thinks on the matter and I can certainly see from what is shared here that there is an element who are causing harm... That element exists on both sides doesn't it, we have seen evidence of both.

I may say I am a trans ally but I am also an intersectional feminist so I care about everyone's needs in this.
I want sensible ways forward that help everyone feel safe and accepted.

Fear drives hostility so whether that is a self proclaimed gender critical feminist abusing someone in a toilet they think shouldn't be there or a trans activist abusing people they think want to stop their rights..

Well the only way I can see to fight against that is to find a way forward that makes everyone safe and happy.

I'm sure people who are abusive, not just scared and angry, will just point their vitriol at something or someone else but for the majority hopefully the world will feel a little more comfortable.

OK really going now lol

There have always been cross dressers of both sexes who liked to live in that role. That doesn't actually make them the sex they're identifying into. If I don a bishop's vestments I don't become a bishop, I remain a woman trying to present as a bishop. It would be totally unethical of me to then try to obtain a position in the Church as a bishop, or to practise as a bishop.
For the most part men in frocks are no problem, but when they don't have the decency to respect those few areas where sex does matter, then they are a huge problem.
They will continue to be included with women, because stopping them from doing so is not practicable. bullies rule eh?

Mainly because Mollygo has twisted my words in such spectacular fashion, I feel quite dizzy.

I really don't understand how everyone else, as women, is OK with that?

Is that how people think they win discussions?

Telling people who they are

Telling people how they feel

Telling people what they mean

Equality means everyone gets a voice right?

Even if you just want equality amongst those who are women without transition?

Equality means we all get a voice right?

I might throw my phone out the nearest window cos I promised myself I wouldn't get dragged into all this again. Good job I'm off out with no WiFi

I really don't understand how everyone else, as women, is OK with that?

What does as a woman mean in this context?

It seems to me a bit like trisher's 'presents as a woman', and i don't understand either.

Trans-ally Lorna Slater, of the Scottish Greens, certainly doesn’t believe in being kind. She compares gender-critical people to racists and anti-Semites. GC people are also apparently funded by right wing American groups.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-reform-critics-like-racists-says-lorna-slater-2chfb5v6k

Elegran you beat me to it.
I've just looked it up in our old OED.
As usual the female seen as dependent on and inferior to the male.
which I suppose we were.
But why?
One idea is that the male population is fewer than female, Because of death in wars etc. So they have a wider choice of partners.
In the rare cases where females are fewer, they tend to have dominance/control over men.
there was once a study about this but I've forgotten the name.

GC people are also apparently funded by right wing American groups.

That old chestnut! Isn't it funny how any even vaguely GC case taken to court has to be financed by crowd funding? Maya Forstater, Alison Bailey, Keira Bell, James Esses. I wonder why the American funding never seems to be there?

In fact many right wing Churches in America far prefer to have a trans child than a homosexual one. 'Transing the gay away' is no joke anymore, it's becoming terrifyingly real.

ps the question I meant to ask- what makes a man want to be a woman? or a woman want to be a man?
Is it genetic reasons ie biological conflict between genders?
Or an intellectual decision to want to achieve the apparent benefits of the other gender?
I think there are more males wanting to be female, than vice versa. Why?

SueDonim

Trans-ally Lorna Slater, of the Scottish Greens, certainly doesn’t believe in being kind. She compares gender-critical people to racists and anti-Semites. GC people are also apparently funded by right wing American groups.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-reform-critics-like-racists-says-lorna-slater-2chfb5v6k

That's straight out of the TRA playbook, SueDonim.

We've had all of those accusations thrown at us on here, too.

I don't ignore them trisher, we had a TW customer for years who was treated with kindness and respect just like everyone else.

When it comes to the erosion of women's rights to have safe spaces and not be reduced to labels like people who bleed, people who have a cervix etc, that is not including TW in the term woman, it is removing the meaning of the word woman to include TW who may identify as and live as a woman, who may have bravely IMO, undergone extensive surgical procedures so their bodies have the appearance of a woman but they are not, never have been and never will be women.

It is clear from these threads on GN, from the way that women are attacked and abused because they rightly say that a man cannot be a woman, that those of us who hold this position, both men and women do not feel safe for themselves and/or for those they love.

If equality means we all have a voice then why are trans activists and their allies attempting to silence those who disagree by shouting them down, making them fearful of expressing their opinions, something we all have the right to do?

I have been told on this thread to 'get over it' and 'move on'.

They will continue to be included with women, because stopping them from doing so is not practicable "bullies rule eh!" it's certainly looking that way Rosie.

VioletSky

Mainly because Mollygo has twisted my words in such spectacular fashion, I feel quite dizzy.

I really don't understand how everyone else, as women, is OK with that?

Is that how people think they win discussions?

Telling people who they are

Telling people how they feel

Telling people what they mean

Equality means everyone gets a voice right?

Even if you just want equality amongst those who are women without transition?

Equality means we all get a voice right?

I might throw my phone out the nearest window cos I promised myself I wouldn't get dragged into all this again. Good job I'm off out with no WiFi

VioletSky I have had my words twisted so many times and been told (wrongly) what I think so many times I have virtually given up on this subject.
There isn't as they seem to imagine a consensus of opinion amongst the gender critical on this thread. Some are more extreme than others.
There is a confusion over exactly what should be done or how it should be implemented.
One poster wants a mandatory sentence for anyone who commits a crime when IDing as a different gender. (I'm not sure who would be classified as guilty of this. Would a stag party sporting dresses, or a hen party dressed as men, picked up and charged for being D&D, automatically get a jail sentence?) It would of course impact massively on our freedom to dress as we choose and would serve to hugely restrict gender norms.

VioletSky

Mainly because Mollygo has twisted my words in such spectacular fashion, I feel quite dizzy.

I didn’t twist anything you said, but actually, I missed that misuse off the list.
8th
twisted my words meaning didn’t twist my words but it’s a good way to avoid admitting what was said was correct.

Just asking, was that a flounce I noticed?

Doodledog

SueDonim
Trans-ally Lorna Slater, of the Scottish Greens, certainly doesn’t believe in being kind. She compares gender-critical people to racists and anti-Semites. GC people are also apparently funded by right wing American groups. confused

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-reform-critics-like-racists-says-lorna-slater-2chfb5v6k
That's straight out of the TRA playbook, SueDonim.

We've had all of those accusations thrown at us on here, too.

I find it particularly annoying when the universally accepted definition of a word is twisted to include something or someone that it was never intended too.

I must have missed that post about mandatory sentencing trisher can you tell me where it is please? The arguments being put forward are not simply about how one chooses to dress as you are well aware.

One poster wants a mandatory sentence for anyone who commits a crime when IDing as a different gender. (I'm not sure who would be classified as guilty of this. Would a stag party sporting dresses, or a hen party dressed as men, picked up and charged for being D&D, automatically get a jail sentence?) It would of course impact massively on our freedom to dress as we choose and would serve to hugely restrict gender norms.

What do you mean, 'one poster'? You mean me, so why not say so? It is disingenuous to keep saying 'some people', 'one poster' and so on.

You badgered and badgered for an answer to 'what should be done to stop men dressing as women and inveigling their way into female spaces?' so I replied that it may be a solution to make it an offence to do so if a crime is committed that was made possible by such a disguise. I meant it in the same way as someone arrested for an offence who is carrying a knife gets an automatic penalty, or someone committing a hate crime gets an additional sentence for the hate element.

To spell it out:
A transwoman is in a changing room to try on a dress = not a problem, and no penalty.

A man in a dress is in the changing room and assaults a teenager = problem, and penalty for the assault, and an additional one for aggravating it by disguising as a woman to gain access.

A couple of points:
(1) asking questions that you know are going to involve complicated answers, and then attempting to ridicule them (as well as the 'some poster' who gave them) by coming up with daft 'examples' such as men on stag nights or whatever is a really transparent 'tactic', and will fool nobody.

(2) The so-called 'gender critical' have never said that we speak as one. There is no 'confusion' if I say one thing and Molly, Rosie or Galaxy say another - we just think differently.

Perhaps you (and/or VS) might like to show where your words have been twisted, please? If it happens as often as you claim, a cursory glance should bring up an example.

Oh, and if you could explain what 'presenting as' a woman means, too it would be lovely.

CBA Doodledog was it you? Do you really think I bother to remember who says what on these threads.
I'm not that invested in them.
I pop in from time to time to see how things are going and if some are still posting about sex and gender as if they are the same things. Then I go off into the real world.
Where boys dress as girls, girls dress as boys, people identify as they choose and the world keeps turning. I treat the people I meet with the respect they deserve and accept them as they wish me to. I actually have no idea about the sex of some of the women I meet, nor I suspect do most of us.
I'm far more worried about the rise of the far right, the spread of fundamentalist religions (both Christian and Muslim) and the resrictions those would place upon women than I am about this subject,

Yy, I know, Doodledog. (Your post of 12:59). It’s just that someone in a place of high political power feels that she can throw around hate talk in that way.

Also I’m nodding along to the US far right extremist who prefer trans to gay.

I don't see much confusion, to be honest.

Basically the majority of biological women on here, like most forums/message boards all find it all a bit "Alice in Wonderland" for TW biological men, and their supporters, to insist that TW are women.

They are not, and they never will be.

They might wish to be, but wishing doesn't make for reality.

No one seems to have a problem with biological men living as women. According to TW supporters on here, biological men, identifying as women, have been mingling quietly with biological women for years.

The problems only started when the radical TW and their radical supporters involved themselves with trying to push biological women away from their (often hard fought for) singular rights and spaces - such as sports, hospital wards, refuges, rape suites etc, by insisting that TW have as much right to use all those spaces and facilities, whilst portraying themselves as women.

And, for some, to try and destroy the careers and lives of those who said what they considered women to be - which was adult females, and nothing else.