The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

Doodledog

I haven’t seen the SAS thing, but was waiting for a ‘gotcha’.

What does it matter whether a few people on one thread on here can tell that someone on television is trans?

The important thing is not how identifiable transpeople are (in fact, it’s arguable that the less obvious it is, the more worrying). The important thing, for the gazillionth time, is that they remain the sex they were born, and simply saying otherwise doesn’t change that. Taking agency from women is misogynistic, and that agency is removed when we have no say over who is in our space and/or touching our bodies. Saying otherwise won’t change that, either.

So now I get it. It's nothing to do with if they would frighten vulnerable women. It's nothing to do with keeping women safe. It's all to do with an ideology which claims being born a woman makes you a woman, no matter how reluctant you might be about being a woman, and no matter what harm might befall you or others. It's the ideology that counts.
It's not an ideology that I find compatible with human rights never mind feminism.

Nic is convincing to an observer, but I wonder how long Nic would last, without a problem, if placed (upon request), in a male prison?

The other prisoners would soon discover that Nic was a biological woman.

So you'll be quite happy to see Nic in changing rooms and loos Doodledog. And even (because he is a woman) admitted to a local women's refuge?

If you said that Nic should go in a male prison Trisher I would think you were beyond cruel.

I would have no problem with transmen in a female refuge.

DiamondLily

Nic is convincing to an observer, but I wonder how long Nic would last, without a problem, if placed (upon request), in a male prison?

The other prisoners would soon discover that Nic was a biological woman.

He's on the SAS. programme. I think he can handle things.
But in any case he's a woman, he'd be in a women's prison.

Galaxy

I would have no problem with transmen in a female refuge.

So you wouldn't think a traumatised woman in a refuge might get upset if they saw Nic? But you think the sight of a transwoman would upset them?

I think the offending rates in the statsitics presented earlier are more than enough to convince me. Its all women for me trisher so I think transmen would be at high risk in a male environment eg prison etc, its why they arent housed in male prisons.

*So now I get it. It's nothing to do with if they would frighten vulnerable women. It's nothing to do with keeping women safe. It's all to do with an ideology which claims being born a woman makes you a woman, no matter how reluctant you might be about being a woman, and no matter what harm might befall you or others. It's the ideology that counts.
It's not an ideology that I find compatible with human rights never mind feminism.*
Here we go again, trisher. That’s absolutely not what I said, but yet again you seem to think that you can tell me what I am thinking. I think what I say I think, not what you tell me I think.

Yes its about womens safety and that includes transmen ir does their safety not count.

Doodledog

*So now I get it. It's nothing to do with if they would frighten vulnerable women. It's nothing to do with keeping women safe. It's all to do with an ideology which claims being born a woman makes you a woman, no matter how reluctant you might be about being a woman, and no matter what harm might befall you or others. It's the ideology that counts.
It's not an ideology that I find compatible with human rights never mind feminism.*
Here we go again, trisher. That’s absolutely not what I said, but yet again you seem to think that you can tell me what I am thinking. I think what I say I think, not what you tell me I think.

This is the sentence I based your post on Doodledog The important thing, for the gazillionth time, is that they remain the sex they were born, and simply saying otherwise doesn’t change that.
I ignored the rant about not caring about who is in our space or touching our bodies because I do you the courtesy of believing you do actually care about women. Something I'm frequently denied .
But if I have misunderstood that sentence please feel free to explain.I'll simply ask
Is Nic a woman? Even though he doesn't want be one?
If transwomen have to use men's facilities, will transmen have to use women's?

trisher

DiamondLily

Nic is convincing to an observer, but I wonder how long Nic would last, without a problem, if placed (upon request), in a male prison?

The other prisoners would soon discover that Nic was a biological woman.

He's on the SAS. programme. I think he can handle things.
But in any case he's a woman, he'd be in a women's prison.

But, the arguments partly involves TW's being in women's prisons, so why wouldn't Nic, a TM, want to go to a male prison?

Surely, identifying as a man, would make Nic want to be accepted into male environments? TM, presumably, think they are men? ?

As I have said the risk to transmen in male prisons for example would be enormous. Why would you want to do that?

They would be at risk, so no, it wouldn't be a great idea.. But, the risk to biological women, in prison, from TW, is also there.

So, best that "vulnerable spaces" are left to biology to sort out who goes where.

Galaxy

Yes its about womens safety and that includes transmen ir does their safety not count.

Of course it counts and actually I would never want to monitor who was using loos or changing rooms because that could only be achieved through imposing gender norms on people and I can't see that as anything other than detrimental.
But I m fascinated by this attitude that there can be some sort of legislation to make transwomen remain men, because if we have equality in law then transmen must remain women. Even though they don't want to be women.
Which if you are a feminist and they are women means you believe there are women whose opinions don't matter ,and that can trigger all sorts of beliefs about other women. And I think some of the posts on these threads illustrate that with their name calling.

Women have rights

Trans people have rights

Disabled people have rights

If people didn't fight for other people's rights then anyone might think they can discriminate without consequence and treat others as less than worthy

People fought for those rights so that any group can apply for jobs or access areas of interest or bathroom facilities of even access their own homes even though that costs money to people who didn't want to spend it.

I'd put transmen in transgender prisons just like transwomen. Sorry the SAS thing was just a comment. Nic can handle himself though.

I hadn’t seen either program. I don’t use male toilets, so as DL says, It’s not my worry.
Other than that,
Thanks Doodledog for this
* The important thing is not how identifiable transpeople are (in fact, it’s arguable that the less obvious it is, the more worrying). The important thing, for the gazillionth time, is that they remain the sex they were born, and simply saying otherwise doesn’t change that. Taking agency from women is misogynistic, and that agency is removed when we have no say over who is in our space and/or touching our bodies. Saying otherwise won’t change that, either.*

If Nic wanted to be in a men's prison I would think he would be allowed (funny isn't it that it always comes down to prisons which are the most unsafe places for any one, male, female trans or non-binary)

Taking agency from women is misogynistic, and that agency is removed when we have no say over who is in our space and/or touching our bodies.
Well you seem to want to take agency from Nic because you believe he is a woman but won't allow him autonomy over his own body and gender.

What people believe doesnt alter reality, anyone can present in any way they like but in certain circumstances sex matters. Some women believe in god I dont this doesnt mean I am denying their rights as women when I say I dont believe in god.

Nic is a woman, a trans man but biologically a woman.

This is the sentence I based your post on Doodledog The important thing, for the gazillionth time, is that they remain the sex they were born, and simply saying otherwise doesn’t change that. I ignored the rant about not caring about who is in our space or touching our bodies because I do you the courtesy of believing you do actually care about women. Something I'm frequently denied . But if I have misunderstood that sentence please feel free to explain.I'll simply ask Is Nic a woman? Even though he doesn't want be one?
Yes. People remain the sex they are born. Of course they do. No magic words can change that.

Saying that women are 'ranting' when they are saying what they think, (along with reframing what women say) and mansplaining by repeating what you have already said that has already been disagreed with is remarkably patriarchal behaviour, I have to say.

If transwomen have to use men's facilities, will transmen have to use women's?
I am not bothered, really. Transmen don't pose a threat to either men or women, so it's not an issue for me. I don't presume to speak for others, though.

Well you seem to want to take agency from Nic because you believe he is a woman but won't allow him autonomy over his own body and gender.
I will 'allow' Nic whatever autonomy he likes - what am I denying him? I will never believe he is male, though.

Galaxy

What people believe doesnt alter reality, anyone can present in any way they like but in certain circumstances sex matters. Some women believe in god I dont this doesnt mean I am denying their rights as women when I say I dont believe in god.

God isn't the question?
The question is must Nic remain a woman even though he doesn't want to be one? And how do you reconcile insisting he is a woman with women having rights? Only some women?

I dont have control over it Trisher. I am not the one who invented biological sex.