The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

If I say transmen are men till I am blue in the face it wont change the biological reality. I and you dont hold that kind of power I am afraid.

Of course it's not 'only some women'. That is completely twisting things. All women have rights. All men have rights. Those rights, however, do not include the right to impose on the rights of others, and do not include the right to force others to go along with a pretence that people can change sex.

Transmen, like transwomen, have a right to live as they please, and to do so free from let or hindrance. They may believe that they have 'transitioned' to become members of the opposite sex, but that doesn't make it true.

Most people will play along by calling him Nic, by referring to him as 'he' and by not mentioning his femaleness when it is not relevant, which is most of the time, so long as he doesn't impose it on others. Transmen are less likely to impose, as (a) they are female, and as such are (on the whole) culturally less likely to impose themselves on others, and (b) because they are female-bodied, and as such are less likely to be physically able to impose themselves even if they wanted to.

Not saying much about transmen is not, as you seem determined to 'prove', because posters are unconcerned about women's rights, but because we are concerned about women's rights, and transmen rarely, if ever, threaten them.

Nic can claim whatever gender required, can use he, she, it or they or invent another pronoun.
Biologically she will still be female.

That, so far, isn’t a problem.
I’ll wait for the trickle of examples where men have claimed that transmen are claiming rights that men regard as specifically for men or where men have been raped by transmen and imprisoned with men to continue perpetrating their crimes etc etc.

At the end of the day this isn't a science issue. It's a human rights issue.

Getting caught up in the science won't help anything, especially as science is often driven by funding and the opinions of those who have the money.

None of us here are experts in biology anyway.

It really doesn't matter how often people shout about basic biology and sex organs because trans people aren't going to vanish in a cloud of glitter if enough people think they shouldn't exist.

This is the problem with assigning philosophical beliefs to anything... Things don't exist or stop existing in a tangible way because enough people believe it.

So we need to look at people's human rights and make sure everyone can access all support and services they need.

Do you feel like that about any other issues VS, climate change for example? Sorry but anyone saying we shouldnt worry about science causes me some alarm.

And people arent going to be able to change sex in a cloud of glitter if enough people say the magic words.

Which human rights are being denied? To whom are they being denied, and who is doing the denying?

Well plain and simple, there is no point us arguing about the science we don't understand.

I've posted research and study before that shows there is more to this than basic biology but it gets disregarded and brought back to basic understanding.

The basic biology argument is just a quick and easy way to shut people down repeated by those who A, aren't scientists and B, aren't willing to look beyond basic biology and understand why this is occurring anyway.

We cannot assign our beliefs to science by disregarding the bits we don't like and if we are going to do that science has no place in this discussion at all.

What does matter is basic human rights and how we can insure everyone gets them.

Which human rights are being denied? To whom are they being denied, and who is doing the denying?

We are going to keep talking about biological reality however uncomfortable it makes people.

What does matter is basic human rights and how we can ensure everyone gets them.

So why are you always keen to promote male rights, especially TW rights overriding female rights?
Do you not consider females to be human?

We cannot assign our beliefs to science by disregarding the bits we don't like and if we are going to do that science has no place in this discussion at all.

Better assign our beliefs to science than to assign them to lies made up by one group of humans to use to the detriment of another group because of the bits they don’t like.

I would still like to know which human rights are being denied?

According to Amnesty they are as follows:

* The right to life

* Freedom from torture

* Protection from slavery and forced labour

* The right to liberty and security

* The right to a fair trial

* No punishment without law

* The right to private and family life

* Freedom of thought, belief and religion

* Freedom of expression

* Freedom of assembly and association

* The right to marry

* Protection from discrimination

* Protection of property

* The right to education

* The right to free elections

Which of these rights has anyone on her ever said should be denied to transpeople?

Throwing around accusations about abuses of human rights id incredibly disrespectful to those who are suffering genuine human rights abuses. Being asked to wait for a changing room, or to use the loo allocated to your biological sex is not an abuse of anyone's human rights, and I do wish that people would stop the hyperbole.

If you read the equality act, we have given certain groups (women included) protections to stop their rights being infringed upon.

Some groups have been given special protections to ensure their access to housing, employment, services, medical care and facilities and thus, food, shelter, hygiene etc...
Because there are those who would discriminate and deny those basic needs...

I don't know how else to explain it

At the end of the day this isn't a science issue. and Getting caught up in the science won't help anything, especially as science is often driven by funding and the opinions of those who have the money. are the 2 funniest statements that I've ever seen posted on this issue! Biological sex isn't a science issue; please could someone drop Sir Robert Winston a quick email to let him know that his lifetime's work has just been debunked by a GNetter? And whilst you're at it, send another one to Bill and Melinda Gates and tell them that their wealth and opinions renders them ineligible to donate £65 billion in donations to scientific, environmental, educational and medical foundations. The world will be a kinder, more inclusive and fairer place without there largesse!

their not there

I don't know how else to explain it

You could explain it by looking at the list of human rights and saying which of them you think are being denied to transpeople, and by whom.

Trans is not a science issue because people are assigning their beliefs to science rather than letting science dictate their beliefs

This only happens when something is deemed "unnatural" by opinion and not science. Science has not deemed trans people as "unnatural" and has not reached its limit of understanding on biology by any means.

It's the exact same thing when someone denies climate change based on their opinions rather than the evidence then uses something like "winter is getting colder so global warming doesn't exist" as evidence to support that belief.

people are assigning their beliefs to science rather than letting science dictate their beliefs

Well they're wrong then! As are you for believing such nonsense! It's theories like this that make me wonder how we ever got past inventing the wheel.

Then explain to me, if your approach to biology is correct, why the scientific and medical community support transition as the right and healthy approach to gender dysphoria?

VioletSky

Then explain to me, if your approach to biology is correct, why the scientific and medical community support transition as the right and healthy approach to gender dysphoria?

Some of them do. Others don't. But you said that this wasn't a matter of science, but of human rights.

Which human rights are being denied to transpeople?

Then explain to me, if your approach to biology is correct, why the scientific and medical community support transition as the right and healthy approach to gender dysphoria?

The biology of sex is immutable. The transition debate is not. More concerns are being raised daily about the offer of hormones and surgery to those too young to understand what they are doing.
You (or trisher) have already posted about transitioners detransitioning.
If that doesn’t raise concerns in your mind then that’s your problem.

I don't agree

I've already explained how discrimination affects human rights

Er they dont. The reports coming out are saying that in terms of young people there is not enough data and what has been happening is cause for concern. The studies show lack of data and inadequate follow up. It looks like a bit more science might be helpful.

VioletSky

I don't agree

I've already explained how discrimination affects human rights

Which ones are being denied?