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the law as it stands on sex - part 3

(337 Posts)
Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 09:11:32

Two thousand posts so far!

To pick up where we left off, I’ll repeat my post from the end of the last thread - I got home too late to get any answers or many comments. I’ll keep the formatting to make it easier to bold, but will lost the bold type or italics:

I’ve been out this evening, so am just catching up with the thread, and have a few questions, if that’s ok.

trisher, you seem to find a lot of this funny, but I don’t see it like that at all.

What was the point of the ‘spot the transwoman’ game?

As Galaxy says, you are quick to label others, and I wouldn’t have thought being called an ‘ally’ would have struck you as offensive, but if you don’t like it I will try to remember not to use it in relation to you. Perhaps you would remember that many people on here (me included) find ‘cis’ offensive, and would return the favour?

I also see myself as someone who believes in human rights and equality. I posted the Amnesty list of human rights on this very thread, after VS insisted that the human rights of transpeople were being abused. I asked which ones were being denied, but there was no response from either of you.

Human rights are very important to me, but I really don’t think that being allowed to undress in front of the opposite sex is a human right, and can’t see anything on the Amnesty list that is being denied to transpeople. If you think otherwise, please state which ones they are, and I’ll reconsider.

VS, You say:
Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights... Others complained it violated theirs. It didn't and it doesn't
Can you please explain what you mean by that? I see it trotted out a lot, but nobody who repeats it has explained how it relates to the following situations:
Where there are people whose rights to undress in a single sex environment is violated by people asking for the right to use that environment as members of the opposite sex.

Where people want the right to compete fairly in a sport that they have trained for for years, but that right is violated by those who have stronger and differently proportioned bodies insisting on competing against them.

When people want the right to have agency over who touches them intimately but that right is violated by someone who does not declare their male sex to female patients/clients.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts, as I do see those things as violations of the rights of one group of people by another.

Also, what is it that you think that legislation has dealt with fairly, please?

DiamondLily Sat 23-Apr-22 09:57:18

Doodledog. I think sometimes some feel too anxious/concerned/worried to enforce any rights.

My grandson attends Plymouth Uni, and the toilets are now gender neutral, with attached sign on the doors.

Some of the males and female students don't actually want this, and weren't consulted.

They just prefer the previous system of male/female facilities, for privacy.

But a noisy minority have insisted upon it, and everyone, including the University, are too concerned about repercussions to argue.

Smileless2012 Sat 23-Apr-22 10:31:10

Well done for starting the third thread Doodledogsmile.

We were left with several unanswered questions and I have certainly learned a lot from the informed contributions that have been made.

There should have been a consultation DL then at least everyone would have felt they'd been listened too.

grumppa Sat 23-Apr-22 10:45:32

The notice actually refers to bathrooms. Is this just a creepy euphemism, or are more than lavatories involved?

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 11:16:37

grumppa

The notice actually refers to bathrooms. Is this just a creepy euphemism, or are more than lavatories involved?

I think it's just toilets, but there's probably no euphemism grin.

It's almost certainly exactly as DL says - the University is scared of being labelled transphobic and has capitulated to the Stonewall agenda, regardless of the impact on the majority of students who would prefer to have privacy and dignity. As ever, the noisy minority gets its way.

It's interesting that it was DL's grandson who commented, as women use the lavatories for purposes other than the obvious (I'm thinking of menstrual necessities, here), and things like Mooncups really do require privacy to deal with. Men may well have their own needs for privacy, too, and would probably feel a bit awkward if they happened on a woman washing one next to them in the sink. There is really no need to put young people in positions like that. These days so many have delicate mental health to start with, and I can only see this sort of thing making social anxiety worse.

I could understand there being additional gender-neutral toilets - it would be genuinely (as opposed to euphemistically) unkind to ask young transwomen, who are already confused, to use the gents' dressed as a woman, but these should not replace the single sex ones, and shouldn't reduce the number of women's loos either, which is usually what happens. We need more, not fewer toilets, but always seem to end up sacrificing ours to men and children.

Mollygo Sat 23-Apr-22 11:20:24

Thanks for starting part 3 Doodledog.

trisher Sat 23-Apr-22 12:18:49

I don't think trans matters are a joke. I do think the people who perpetuate these threads are a joke. I've reported the thread. I object to having my name used in an OP when quite frankly I've heard all I need to hear from the gender critical on here. And I choose to disengage from them. They are funny, the results of the hate they spread isn't.

Lollipop1 Sat 23-Apr-22 12:57:00

Trisher, dear, whatever happened to free speech. This is an excellent thread.

Mollygo Sat 23-Apr-22 13:12:16

trisher

I don't think trans matters are a joke.

Trisher, I totally agree.
I think trans matters are a really serious issue.
These threads, whether they question the safety of AHF, even at the hands of a small number of TW, or make a joke of it by asking me to play “spot the trans”
when it isn’t the issue of what they look like but whether they misrepresent themselves as females to the detriment of natal women, or as you rather (in my opinion) insist on saying cis women, in places where males should not be.

But reporting a thread where issues are raised about female safety being threatened and male cheating endorsed . . . ?

trisher Sat 23-Apr-22 13:16:19

Lollipop1

Trisher, dear, whatever happened to free speech. This is an excellent thread.

Thread can remain without posting my name in the OP I assume I have the right not to parucipate?

trisher Sat 23-Apr-22 13:16:53

Mollygo

trisher

I don't think trans matters are a joke.

Trisher, I totally agree.
I think trans matters are a really serious issue.
These threads, whether they question the safety of AHF, even at the hands of a small number of TW, or make a joke of it by asking me to play “spot the trans”
when it isn’t the issue of what they look like but whether they misrepresent themselves as females to the detriment of natal women, or as you rather (in my opinion) insist on saying cis women, in places where males should not be.

But reporting a thread where issues are raised about female safety being threatened and male cheating endorsed . . . ?

See my answer to Lollipop

VioletSky Sat 23-Apr-22 13:16:58

I'm not comfortable with my name being in an OP either.

I should have a choice on whether or not I want to be part of a new thread on any subject.

Neither trisher or I are official spokespersons. We don't get paid to answer questions or give our time to these threads and the frequent demands on that time is demonstrated clearly by putting our names in an OP of a thread we haven't joined by choice.

Especially when most questions have already been answered many times and it seems to either be a case of, our answers are disregarded or trying to catch us out.

Here is my position

I agree with the law as it stands.

I agree there are issues with how that law has been interpretated in some areas.

I agree with womens rights to safe spaces and equality of opportunity in sports or any other area.

I don't agree trans people asserting their rights takes away anything from women and I don't believe the majority of trans people, who are just trying to live their authentic lives are responsible for creating the issues. I believe trans people in general aren't responsible for the actions of a few "trans activists" doing harm the same way I am not responsible for the actions of a few extremist women causing harm to trans people.

I no longer want to be part of this thread.

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 13:20:06

I was responding to the ‘it’s funny’ comment on the other thread. It’s something you often say, and I wondered what was funny this time, is all.

Is there a rule about not continuing threads, or not using a name in the OP? If so, I’m sorry, as I wasn’t aware. A few threads move onto parts 2,3,4 with no problem.

trisher Sat 23-Apr-22 13:21:00

Here's why I'm disengaging www.statista.com/statistics/623785/transgender-hate-crimes-in-england-and-wales-by-region/

trisher Sat 23-Apr-22 13:24:40

If you choose to be part of someting which drives hate crimes that is up to you. If you think you aren't contributing you are a joke.
I taught for many years in schools where children came in with racist ideas gleaned from misinformation fed to them by their parents of what black people did. I don't want to spend my time trying to educate adults about the unfortunate results of their negative stereotyping.

VioletSky Sat 23-Apr-22 13:27:41

doodledog

Your OP appears as me having said things I have said the opposite of.

As clarified to you once again by my last comment.

I will wait to see if gransnet address mine and trishers rights to have our opinions expressed as we relate them and to choose which threads we join or if I need to report it too

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 13:37:49

Oh, one on, VS. I quoted you directly. All I was doing was continuing a conversation that the 1000 post limit had ended prematurely. If you and trisher want to use that limit to filibuster and avoid answering awkward questions, fine, but at least own it, and don’t feign indignation?

DiamondLily Sat 23-Apr-22 14:13:58

I got the impression that the opening post on this thread (part 3), was just a continuation of the comments, and replies, made on Part 2.

This forum ends threads after x amount of posts, so a continuation thread is the only thing to do.

As with any forum no one has to post, obviously, and trying to get a thread shut down seems a little OTT.

Just don't post.

Many women are interested in this issue, and free speech, I believe, is still allowed.🙂

Mollygo Sat 23-Apr-22 14:16:25

Tricia I wasn’t mentioning the original post, I was responding to your comment

I don’t think trans matters are a joke.
I simply agreed and explained why.

You said,^If you choose to be part of someting which drives hate crimes that is up to you. If you think you aren't contributing you are a joke.^

As I have pointed out before, what you say works equally with what you do, in the reverse direction.
Support TRA - support hate crimes.
Deny female rights, without ‘loopholes’, = supporting hate crimes by the TW who perpetuate them.

VS the easiest way to not be part of a thread is not to post. As soon as you post you have made your choice to be part of that thread.

VioletSky Sat 23-Apr-22 14:25:22

doodledog read your OP again,

Safe spaces

Sports

All mentioned under my name despite my agreeing womens rights must be respected
from the beginning of discussions

I will not engage in a dishonest discussion where the very OP misrepresents me and my views.

Take responsibility for how you ask before you demand an answer

DiamondLily Sat 23-Apr-22 14:27:01

My post was about Plymouth University, and the fact that my male grandson felt uncomfortable sharing a toilet with women. Any type of woman.

He also has female classmates who don't want to share with males. Any type of male.

Nothing to do with anyone harmed - just the loss of privacy, both ways. And the fact that consultation was virtually nil.

It's not about hate - it's about a bit of common sense appearing to be sadly lacking in University leaders.🙄

VioletSky Sat 23-Apr-22 14:27:48

Oh and i saw trisher called "trasher" at the end of the last thread despite a and i being opposite ends of the keyboard so not an accident

Who would want to engage with that?

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 14:29:45

trisher

Here's why I'm disengaging www.statista.com/statistics/623785/transgender-hate-crimes-in-england-and-wales-by-region/

Ok, and any hate crimes are too many; but [[ www.statista.com/statistics/288100/crimes-in-england-and-wales-by-police-force/ here is a list of the numbers of all crimes by force area, from the same source as your figures]].

As I don’t have a subscription I can’t see the figures, but this text is directly underneath the graph:
There were over 742 thousand crimes recorded by the Metropolitan Police in London in 2020/21, the most of any police force area in England and Wales. Greater Manchester Police reported 276 thousand crimes, while West Midland police recorded 269 thousand, making these police forces the second and third-highest in terms of crime recorded.

This shows that the number of crimes recorded as hate crimes against transpeople is a tiny proportion of crimes as a whole. I don’t say that to excuse even one of them, but to put your figures into proportion.

VioletSky Sat 23-Apr-22 14:31:46

Ew.

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 14:32:24

VioletSky

Oh and i saw trisher called "trasher" at the end of the last thread despite a and i being opposite ends of the keyboard so not an accident

Who would want to engage with that?

Have you not heard of autocorrect? I don’t know if you are referring to one of my posts (I doubt it because I do check), but I often find that names are ‘corrected’ to the nearest word that is recognised. As we can’t edit, there is nothing we can do. It’s one of the reasons I often use initials in posts (eg VS).