The Brexit Effect

Brexit is an obstruction to trade and innovation

www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/29/brexit-red-tape-puts-brakes-on-uk-innovation-and-eu-sales

Rushi Sunsk must abandon the lie

www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/10/rishi-sunak-brexit-good-for-uk

2.6m EU citizens at risk of expulsion from the UK

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/01/home-office-is-putting-26m-eu-citizens-at-risk-of-removal-court-hears

varian

I wonder how long it will take for the leavers to admit they were wrong?

I'm not holding my breath.

They won't. They will, however, eventually either die or become the weirdos in the corner of the pub (if there are any left) as history tells our decedent's how and why the wealth of our country was destroyed.

There will still be those around who think that Trump had the election stolen from him, that mass shootings and bombings were conspiracies set up to manipulate public opinion and played out by "crisis actors", that secret and unauthorised networks of power stop governments from pursuing their own goals and that Brexit was really a success.

There really is not point in talking to some people.

DaisyAnne, but they knew EXACTLY what they wre voting for!!!

With such a tiny majority, demographics alone have tipped the balance, never mind the vast majority having 'seen the light' and changed their mind.

I’ll never regret voting leave.
Neither will the ( many ) people I know who voted leave.
Sorry

But we’ll happily die in the ‘weirdo’s’ corner of a pub. Sounds like a great way to go.

LOL, I'll buy you a drink on your way ;)

But you do realise you are now in a tiny minority.

Rees-Mogg could not find any so the job was got rid off. Could you please give us that list we have been asking for, for years now? Please.

Kandinsky

I’ll never regret voting leave.
Neither will the ( many ) people I know who voted leave.
Sorry

But we’ll happily die in the ‘weirdo’s’ corner of a pub. Sounds like a great way to go.

Leavers are not repentant for helping to destroy the UK economy, it comes down to general xenophobia, they just hate any thing that’s not “British”.

Kandinsky

I’ll never regret voting leave.
Neither will the ( many ) people I know who voted leave.
Sorry

But we’ll happily die in the ‘weirdo’s’ corner of a pub. Sounds like a great way to go.

Can I just ask what did you want when you voted leave and has it been achieved?

I’m with you kandinsky. Would vote Leave again if asked for the sheer pleasure of it. Remember the announcement in 2016? I was joyous. Much has thwarted progress. We were in for over 40 years so there’s a lot to untangle yet. It’s early days.

Btw I think we are only a minority on here.

Is that you Suella?

😁

Katie59

The whole trade issue is a mess, the aim of Brexit was to cherry pick EU deals and free up better deals with third countries. The former failed, Covid and Ukraine has prevented any significant progress on the latter.

I simply believe that the EU does not trust this government one millimeter, let’s face it they have enough problems of their own, to spend much thought over ours of our own making.

Truss had a vision to get us out of the hole we have dug for ourselves, then made a total mess of presenting it, Sunak’s appointment has stabilized politics but the hole is still there. Although Starmer is calling for a GE he knows there won’t be one, whoever is in power is going to make little if any progress until normal trading conditions return.

Katie, the markets would not react to poor presentation; they are far too sophisticated for that. They reacted to the content of the budget and their lack of trust in Truss and Kwarteng.

You are descending into newspeak.

“Katie, the markets would not react to poor presentation; they are far too sophisticated for that. They reacted to the content of the budget and their lack of trust in Truss and Kwarteng.”

I disagree with that, if the plan had been presented as a properly costed budget it may well have been acceptable, not popular but that’s a different case, we’ve had plenty of unpopular budgets. Sunak’s plan is probably not going to be popular, so far he has said he is going to protect the most vulnerable and raise taxes. Along with inevitable spending cuts and high interest rates it’s going to be a very tough budget for many of us to swallow.

I disagree with that, if the plan had been presented as a properly costed budget it may well have been acceptable, not popular but that’s a different case,

It was never going to work, KAtie59. Cutting taxes for the wealthy and for companies was never going to 'grow' the economy. The 'trickle down' effect has been empirically proven not to work time and time again. Cutting company taxes doesn't encourage investment, it just leads to share buy backs and higher dividends for shareholders. Also empirically proven.

Meanwhile, the greater part of the population, in a cost of living crisis, has very little spare money to spend on new goods and services. No company is going to invest in an economy that has very little spare money in it to generate the profit that would justify the investment.

The only way that our economy will recover most rapidly is through significant state investment. You've got to put the money into the economy before any company can take it out... Nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.

I think 'the markets' would have been fine with a strong programme of state investment and the prospect of growth.

A reminder of the Keynes dictum quoted on another thread

As Keynes famously said: " You can't balance the nation's books by cutting the nation's income. "

Like most people I hope, I evaluated the pros and cons of Brexit and decided that, on balance, we were better off staying in, plus the people who were the strongest advocates of Brexit put me off (Farage for one). In a non goady way, could I ask Kadinsky and Urmstongran why, based on what we have endured since 2016, they would still joyfully vote for Brexit again? Honestly? What areas of your or public life have you seen improved by your vote? I am truly curious.

State investment.

Yes that was the part of the Truss plan that was not publicized, it had no chance of working unless a lot of state investment was carried out to stimulate the economy.

My own doubts were that it was a long term plan that had little chance of success before the next GE

Katie59

State investment.

Yes that was the part of the Truss plan that was not publicized, it had no chance of working unless a lot of state investment was carried out to stimulate the economy.

My own doubts were that it was a long term plan that had little chance of success before the next GE

If it wasn't publicised how do you know about it? What did she intend doing?

It could not have worked without increased borrowing, there must have been a lot of state investment needed.

What was the plan, Katie?

The state doesn't have to borrow to invest. It's really time that people understood this. I am not making this up.

From: *Embrace the self-financing state — it is already here*


In our recent working paper, ‘The self-financing state’, we analyse in detail how the UK public finances operate and the government’s role in the sterling monetary system.* Through extensive analysis of legal statutes, public reports, correspondence with authorities, and Freedom of Information requests, we have arrived at a clear conclusion regarding the UK public finances: the government always finances its spending by issuing new money.

This is not an active decision to use monetary finance, as one is led to believe by the Government Budget Constraint theory. On the contrary, it is a straightforward consequence of the way the sterling monetary system has been designed and operated for at least a century and a half.

medium.com/iipp-blog/embrace-the-self-financing-state-it-is-already-here-35cef7595495

www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/sites/bartlett_public_purpose/files/the_self-financing_state_an_institutional_analysis_of_government_expenditure_revenue_collection_and_debt_issuance_operations_in_the_united_kingdom.pdf

The Truss plan I’m pretty sure was to invest in growth, wether that was borrowing or QE or creation of money.

So Maisie tell us if the cash to increase growth is not borrowed, or QE, where does it come from, or is there a “magic money tree” after all

Katie59

The Truss plan I’m pretty sure was to invest in growth, wether that was borrowing or QE or creation of money.

So Maisie tell us if the cash to increase growth is not borrowed, or QE, where does it come from, or is there a “magic money tree” after all

Read the extract I posted, or read the documents I linked to. There certainly is a 'magic money tree'. It's called the Bank of England and it created' the money for QE. If it can 'create' money to buy bonds it can 'create' it for the government to spend directly into public services. In fact, that's exactly what it does do. The spending comes first, as the researchers discovered by ^ extensive analysis of legal statutes, public reports, correspondence with authorities, and Freedom of Information requests^

I'm at a loss to understand why this is so difficult to grasp.

Being 'pretty sure' that Truss was going to invest in growth is not a plan.
At least Labour says what it is going to invest in...

Truss was planning to borrow in order to fund the tax relief for the richest. What we do need is an increase in taxes together with an increase in investment in UK industries.