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Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

(690 Posts)
FarNorth Wed 02-Nov-22 17:04:45

Petition .
Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243

Lathyrus Sat 05-Nov-22 18:41:50

Unfortunately the story shows that women have lost safe spaces like Refuges.

So what can be done about. That was my question. I was responding to your concern for protecting children and raised a current concern. It’s well published so hardly a “grenade”. There was nothing more personal to it than a response to a post you had already made.

Unlike your comment to me .

It’s a pity we can’t quote things posters have said on other threads, on regard to abuse. But we can’t so I won’t.

Galaxy Sat 05-Nov-22 18:42:27

However they present being in womens spaces.

Fleurpepper Sat 05-Nov-22 18:50:20

Glorianny

This is a very interesting article about a research study- Around the Toilet journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0038026120934697
It isn't sympathetic to gender critical ideas.

Thank you. Confirms that Transwomen are much more likely to suffer bullying, violence, or even rape- when using toilets for males.

Galaxy Sat 05-Nov-22 18:55:29

Many men are vulnerable to Male violence. Should they too be allowed in female spaces.

Fleurpepper Sat 05-Nov-22 18:58:21

Of course not. How can you even compare?

Galaxy Sat 05-Nov-22 18:58:47

Toilets are very easily solved as has been said many times before. Prisons refuges sport crime stats not so much.

Galaxy Sat 05-Nov-22 18:59:20

Because they are all of the Male sex FP.

Galaxy Sat 05-Nov-22 19:01:31

It is exactly the same to me if Eddie Izzard is in a female space and if John Bishop is in a female space.

Fleurpepper Sat 05-Nov-22 19:02:30

Oh stop it.

People, like my niece and 2 friends, who looks like females, dress like females, are so visible and would be immediate target in male only toilets. Really !?! Don't tell me you can't understand this?

Fleurpepper Sat 05-Nov-22 19:03:04

And NO, toilets are not EASILY solved, at all.

Fleurpepper Sat 05-Nov-22 19:10:21

Because females will use toilets for females. Males will use toilets for males, And trans people will still be ther target if they choose gender neutral toilets and be seen as deviant. And malevolent people of any sex will still be threatening and dangerous.

Rosie51 Sat 05-Nov-22 19:27:30

Do people really see Eddie Izzard who is a 'girl' some of the time and a 'boy' some of the time despite being 60 years old as a 'genuine transwoman'? If he isn't the epitome of rich white male privilege then I don't know what is!

Galaxy Sat 05-Nov-22 19:36:16

You either provide fully enclosed cubicles with a sink or you provide single sex toilets and gender neutral. Then people who are happy using gender neutral do so. Many places offer this solution.

Galaxy Sat 05-Nov-22 19:38:24

It always gets dragged back to toilets as well. Refuges prisons sport crime stats are the main ones for me.

Mollygo Sat 05-Nov-22 19:45:45

Fleurpepper

Oh stop it.

People, like my niece and 2 friends, who looks like females, dress like females, are so visible and would be immediate target in male only toilets. Really !?! Don't tell me you can't understand this?

If that’s true then they’re unlikely to do any of the things that those causing problems do. Have they used female toilets unnoticed up till now?
Then why would that change?
We keep being told you can’t judge by appearance, but people do. What is there about the people you mention that would immediately identify them as not female?

Is it their behaviour?
Did they always display that they weren’t female in the toilets?

Did they go out of their way to make females feel threatened or uncomfortable?

Did they come out and boast that they’d broken the rules and got away with it?

It’s the TIM who caused those sorts of behaviour who are responsible for this situation, which affects females and those like the trans you refer to.

What can you do about it?
How would you make it easy to differentiate between
a) those you speak of and
b) those responsible for this situation,
so that both females and a) above can feel safe.
I’d really be happy for you to come up with a solution that does that.

growstuff Sat 05-Nov-22 19:48:41

Galaxy

You either provide fully enclosed cubicles with a sink or you provide single sex toilets and gender neutral. Then people who are happy using gender neutral do so. Many places offer this solution.

I must admit I've not noticed many gender neutral toilets. I'll have to keep an eye open for them in future.

growstuff Sat 05-Nov-22 19:52:29

The problem is Mollygo that if a fully transitioned transwoman (who would still be male according to you) were to use a male urinal, she wouldn't have a penis and wouldn't be able to urinate as men do. There are also some people in this world who would bully anybody in a skirt in a male toilet.

Galaxy Sat 05-Nov-22 19:52:48

I have been around a lot of universities lately so that might be why grin

FarNorth Sat 05-Nov-22 20:03:34

Male toilets have cubicles too, growstuff.
I expect they ae used by most transmen and can be used by transwomen.

Mollygo Sat 05-Nov-22 20:10:19

growstuff

The problem is Mollygo that if a fully transitioned transwoman (who would still be male according to you) were to use a male urinal, she wouldn't have a penis and wouldn't be able to urinate as men do. There are also some people in this world who would bully anybody in a skirt in a male toilet.

Why would you suggest a fully transitioned male would try to use a urinal?
That’s really taking the * * * *!

Yes they would still be male if that was their sex at birth, not just according to me, but according to their chromosomes.

I agree with the second part of your post,
so bearing in mind we’ve repeatedly been told by current and past posters that we cannot distinguish between male and female by appearance,
can you come up with a solution to this issue which doesn’t immediately allow all males to access female toilets, female facilities, or allow cheating in female sports?

JaneJudge Sat 05-Nov-22 20:15:07

to be fair, I live nr a town that only has gender neutral toilets. All the toilets in the town centre are single toilets with a hand basin. I suppose a bit like on a train?

Doodledog Sat 05-Nov-22 20:17:25

growstuff

Galaxy

You either provide fully enclosed cubicles with a sink or you provide single sex toilets and gender neutral. Then people who are happy using gender neutral do so. Many places offer this solution.

I must admit I've not noticed many gender neutral toilets. I'll have to keep an eye open for them in future.

There are some in my place of work. They used to be the Ladies'. The Gents' remains the same (presumably because of the urinals) and the old Ladies, which already included the disabled loo is now GN. Not only that, but it is right by the main door to the building, so a lot of men don't bother to walk down the corridor to the Gents', and sometimes people getting caught short on the way from one building to another use them too.

There are four cubicles to serve all the women and disabled people (both staff and students) on the ground floor, as well as passers by, the very occasional transperson and and the only other Ladies' loo is what used to be staff ones on the third floor (there is a Gents' on every floor). The ex-staff ones consist of two cubicles and a sink, and appear to have been hastily crammed into a broom cupboard when women started getting academic jobs - there is nothing like enough space to be worth trudging up three flights of stairs in the hope of finding one empty. There rarely is an empty one, as the admin staff (predominantly female) are based on the third floor.

The GN ones are traditional block loos, with a row of cubicles and sinks opposite, so anyone washing her hands after changing a tampon, or anyone needing to wash a Mooncup has to do it in mixed company or hang about waiting to get some single-sex privacy, thus lingering in one of the cubicles for longer than necessary.

I don't think that this is untypical - it is far easier to 'convert' a Ladies' loo to GN, as there is no urinal problem and anyone can use a cubicle. 'Conversion' amounts to changing the sign on the door. The fact that women take longer to pee, even without any of this, is not taken into account - we just have to queue, and if we are late for a meeting or class, so be it. Complaints are met with accusations of not wanting to find or accept solutions. See posts on here passim if you are in any doubt about that.

The building is open 24/7 as there are computers for student use and a PG library in there, so there will be times when it is quiet, too. I am not there very often or much after 6.00 these days, but I don't think I'd be very keen to use them later on. At least when they were Ladies' loos a man wandering in would be noticeably suspicious, so anyone spotting him would be alert and could call security. Now, you just have to hope he's not a rapist.

Galaxy Sat 05-Nov-22 20:32:45

Yes GN need to run alongside single sex provision not replace them. In the unis I have visited there were 3 options.

growstuff Sat 05-Nov-22 21:08:48

Mollygo

growstuff

The problem is Mollygo that if a fully transitioned transwoman (who would still be male according to you) were to use a male urinal, she wouldn't have a penis and wouldn't be able to urinate as men do. There are also some people in this world who would bully anybody in a skirt in a male toilet.

Why would you suggest a fully transitioned male would try to use a urinal?
That’s really taking the * * * *!

Yes they would still be male if that was their sex at birth, not just according to me, but according to their chromosomes.

I agree with the second part of your post,
so bearing in mind we’ve repeatedly been told by current and past posters that we cannot distinguish between male and female by appearance,
can you come up with a solution to this issue which doesn’t immediately allow all males to access female toilets, female facilities, or allow cheating in female sports?

Well, if I've understood your argument correctly, the person would still be male and shouldn't be using a female toilet. If there isn't a gender neutral toilet, what's the person supposed to do?

PS. Try reading what I write before you get so aggressive. It doesn't do you any favours.

growstuff Sat 05-Nov-22 21:11:16

JaneJudge

to be fair, I live nr a town that only has gender neutral toilets. All the toilets in the town centre are single toilets with a hand basin. I suppose a bit like on a train?

Fair enough! I've never really looked.