Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

Mollygo

DaisyAnne

How arrogant of you to twist my words like that.
I presume that’s how you read it because you don’t agree with it. You don’t have to agree with it and I didn’t tell you you should.
There are so many much better examples than mine on GN of people telling others that their opinion is wrong, though I doubt if they see themselves as arrogant.

I did not "twist your words". If you cannot make yourself clear that is your issue not mine.

What happens then, however, if a test is being done where the result found is fine for a male but dangerous for a female, or vice versa?

Caleo in a situation such as the above your results would need to be interpreted using your physical sex which is the same as it has been for your whole life.

Galaxy, by "under the Equality Act" do you mean that I can claim to be any sex I like, or that I may not do so?

Or does the Equality Act apply also to 3rd persons such that I must observe their right to identify with any sex they choose to claim pertains to them?

Far North, I don't think I wrote what you quoted. However your reply fits my claim. For about half my lifespan I experienced a body with female gonads. For most of that half I experienced female gender.

I am starting a petition for the right to genderless, sexless old age. This status will include unbaised wisdom and foresight like the witches in Macbeth who advised Banquo.

There remains the problem of people who are historically neither one or the other, or a mixture of both.

I have signed and am totally sick of gransnet being taken over by those who think that anyone born a male or female can opt to change that. It is biologically impossible. Let's get back to the real world.

unbiased

DaisyAnne

Mollygo

DaisyAnne

How arrogant of you to twist my words like that.
I presume that’s how you read it because you don’t agree with it. You don’t have to agree with it and I didn’t tell you you should.
There are so many much better examples than mine on GN of people telling others that their opinion is wrong, though I doubt if they see themselves as arrogant.

I did not "twist your words". If you cannot make yourself clear that is your issue not mine.

What you said Mollygo was By not signing, they make it quite clear that for them, male supremacy still rules, even if he’s wearing a dress!

That is more than arrogant and a great deal less than discussion. If you make such deliberately disparaging and belittling comments, it shows all we need to know about the ability of the person making it to form a reasoned opinion.

Esspee. I bow down before thy scientific knowledge

Esspee

I have signed and am totally sick of gransnet being taken over by those who think that anyone born a male or female can opt to change that. It is biologically impossible. Let's get back to the real world.

Suits me! Just how many threads have there been on trans issues? It would appear those who are obsessed by the topic are the ones taking over GN.

DaisyAnne

DaisyAnne

Mollygo

DaisyAnne

How arrogant of you to twist my words like that.
I presume that’s how you read it because you don’t agree with it. You don’t have to agree with it and I didn’t tell you you should.
There are so many much better examples than mine on GN of people telling others that their opinion is wrong, though I doubt if they see themselves as arrogant.

I did not "twist your words". If you cannot make yourself clear that is your issue not mine.

What you said Mollygo was By not signing, they make it quite clear that for them, male supremacy still rules, even if he’s wearing a dress!

That is more than arrogant and a great deal less than discussion. If you make such deliberately disparaging and belittling comments, it shows all we need to know about the ability of the person making it to form a reasoned opinion.

Is there some kind of instruction book to attack those who don't agree with anti-trans rules? They always seem to come up with the same claim about male supremacy, which is a "non sequitur" totally ridiculous.

Caleo

Esspee. I bow down before thy scientific knowledge

Just common sense, that's all.

Esspee, it seems common sense to me too. However biological sex is an occasion for science despite it may be counter intuitive.

I believe gender is generally a range of stereotypes imposed by society, so very happy to fight against gender, that has no impact on what sex you are.

Caleo

Esspee, it seems common sense to me too. However biological sex is an occasion for science despite it may be counter intuitive.

It may (be counterintuitive) for some, and there is no reason at all IMO why those for whom that is the case shouldn’t live as they wish. I am completely supportive of legal rights against harassment and discrimination against those who do. The petition isn’t about that though. It is about sex-based rights.

I’m not being nosy (well, maybe I am ), but your story sounds interesting. Obviously no pressure to share, but I would like to hear it if you don’t mind doing so.

Caleo

Esspee, it seems common sense to me too. However biological sex is an occasion for science despite it may be counter intuitive.

I'm sorry Caleo I don't understand that. I suspect a predictive text error - always happening to me. 😄

Darker colouring on the map shows higher percentages of the population who have signed.
Not surprisingly, higher in Scotland where ScotGov hopes to impose self-identification of sex very soon.

petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=623243

Sex is real and immutable. Sex based protections are important, nobody should be discriminated against for their sex. Sex is easily determined. When there is genetic material left at the scene of a crime, it goes for DNA testing. That test can identify whether it was a male or female that left it, and can even match it to an individual if they have a sample to compare it to. They never ever get the sex wrong. That isn't because they've been incredibly lucky but because the science works.
Some people have a gender identity, that can be anything they like. Eddie Izzard in an interview with Joe Rogan stated that he is in boy mode for acting parts, girl mode for most of his private and political life. When asked how he achieves this he replied he slips from one to the other by for example, removing high heels and putting on flats, which is just stereotype endorsement.

Caleo sorry I wasn't clear.
I was actually quoting myself in connection with my reply to you.

Esspee. I mean I agree with you that allocation of sex feels like a matter of common sense, but I don't believe this intuition is correct.

Despite the scientific finding may be counter-intuitive I believe allocation of sex is a matter for scientific investigation, not common sense.

FarNorth

Glorianny if a medical record is factually correct it wouldn't matter what confusion might be created by the patient saying a number of things like "I'm trans" "I'm a man" "I did a pregnancy test" "I'm not female".

Given the public statements of some trans people e.g. India Willoughby saying "I am biologically female" and "I have a cervix" it's perfectly possible that a distressed patient would make confusing statements about themself.

If the medical staff are to disregard the sex signifier on all records and regard everyone as possibly female & equally possibly male, there is no point in that signifier being there at all.

What happens then, however, if a test is being done where the result found is fine for a male but dangerous for a female, or vice versa?

Can you give me an example of any such test FarNorth?

The patient's notes are largely irrelevant. I spent hours in many different A&E depts with my mum. On no occasion were her notes brought out. We gave a basic medical history to the first people we spoke to (in my mum's case it was long and complicated) and they treated her from that. Even after several weeks in hospital her notes hadn't been completely read by the medical staff. When she developed a complication and I was able to tell them some history relevant to it the junior doctor practically jumped for joy and rushed off. Presumably he was able to update his more senior colleagues.

This man was the victim of staff assumptions. Stop trying to attribute blame to him or excuse the staff who didn't listen to him in order to use this terrible mistake to suit your personal predilections. It shows a real lack of respect.

Like it or not, we are defined by our bodies not what goes on in our heads. Born male....always male...ditto female.

FarNorth

Darker colouring on the map shows higher percentages of the population who have signed.
Not surprisingly, higher in Scotland where ScotGov hopes to impose self-identification of sex very soon.

petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=623243

Mmm less than 1% of the population in any area. Not exactly a popular demand then.

In the real world the midwife sees a penis and declares the baby a boy. In the absence of a penis the baby is declared a girl. It really is that simple for the huge majority of births. To quote Margaret Mead "that is the way it is in most species".
There is always a tiny minority of abnormalities but overwhelmingly it is just that simple.
I'm not discussing how people feel, just the facts.
I don't want to upset you Caleo, clearly I know nothing about your circumstances nor is it anyone's business but your own, but it really is as simple as we are born male or female and nothing can change this.

Glorianny

FarNorth

Darker colouring on the map shows higher percentages of the population who have signed.
Not surprisingly, higher in Scotland where ScotGov hopes to impose self-identification of sex very soon.

petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=623243

Mmm less than 1% of the population in any area. Not exactly a popular demand then.

The total number has increased by 50% since I signed earlier today. Give it a chance before posting half-baked conclusions?

I never know if petitions like this make a difference or not, and I know that the fact that you have to put details of name and postcode puts people off. Also, much depends on whether they are picked up by people with large social networks who are prepared to share. Overall, I doubt that they are very representative of the strength of feeling for any issue, but it is worth a try.

I signed one I was certain was doomed to failure (not to do with trans issues), but was asked to do so by a refuge charity I support and I was surprised to learn that not only was it debated in parliament when Priti Patel was Home Secretary but that it succeeded in its aims - you never know.

M0nica

The transgender people may kow but what about the medical staff in an emergency, or a specialist reading the casenotes.

Will they always say what their sex, as distinct to their gender is when asked?

Anyone going to doctor's with severe condition where gender is key, will not hesitate to explain. And in an emergency, a doctor will soon work it out, in most cases. Where do you stop?

I have been criticised for making some sort of link between transgender, and mixed race ethnicity. Because sometimes it is obvious, and sometimes, it is not. Our grand-daughter was not diagnosed properly as a baby, due to assumptions by medical staff that her blonde hair and blue eyes indicate Caucasian/European race. It took weeks for them to say, well, we would normally know what the problem is, but it can't be that because whe is white European on both parents' sides. Because she is massively mixed race, but it just does not 'show' in her features. African, Indian, Indonesian. When daughter explained, bingo, diagnosis done.

And the question I have asked recently about transgender, in most cases, it does 'show' - very rare case like my niece that no-one would ever know- until examination of genital apparatus where it would be clear that this was constructed from the male parts. If she was a nurse, a teacher, a carer (as she is), a police woman, a fire woman, whatever- no-one would ever know, unless she chose to disclose.

Same for my GC- they are much much more mixed race than most- where it shows. In their case, you would never ever ever guess. Stereotypes are just that, nonsense. Like discrimination. Be it on race, religion, sexual orientation or trans choice.

In some places, and in some parts of the world, in some times in history- some groups have been reviled, demonised, and some people brain-washed to be genuinely scared, and or disgusted by them. And looking back or from afar, we watch aghast at their treatment.

I see no reason why the perception of transgender is any different. And yes, I am fully aware that some of you disagree.