Sunak has used a lot of Political Credit on sorting out the Northern Ireland Protocol deal ...

Tbh it just seems like semantics.

Urmston my bear brain is even smaller!

What I'm trying to say is, when we were in the EU we had an automatic right to buy property, study, work, etc., now we can still do these things but don't have an automatic right to do so.

So you can buy a property but different rules could apply - just as in say Turkey where a friend bought many years ago, it was very easy to purchase but she had no legal right to buy as a non national, but was allowed to.

It's by the grace of any EU country to allow us to do anything, whereas before we had a right.

Thank you Riverwalk I get what you’re saying now. 😁
Good job Spain let me buy a property .... hehe! Mind you we paid dearly in 2004 it was just before the big recession hit so we paid top dollar (or euro!). Fortunately after the recession when the market value of our placed plummeted by half, it has very very slowly crept back up in priceto what we originally paid for it! If we’d have bought a caravan in say, Wales, 19y ago - that money would be long gone by now. So in that respect we feel we made a good choice.
😊

Urmstongran

I didn’t pull up any drawbridge. Thank you GG13.
A friend of ours bought a small apartment up the road from us in October last year. Easy peasy” was how she described it! They, like us, are not wealthy.

Anyway didn’t most voters decide what they wanted out of the referendum on personal circumstances? Actually the majority I would hazard!

But you did- for those who intended to go and live there, especially on retirement. We have many friends who spent all their savings buying a doer-upper in France, Italy or Spain, and spent all their holidays working hard on renovation, garden, etc. - and again, all their savings along the way. With the intention of moving there when they retired. They can't do that now- and couldn't afford to retire early to beat the deadline.

Not only are their dreams shattered, they can't sell at a decent price to get their money back, as so many are in the same situation. They have to keep a property in the UK too- when they intended to sell to have money to live on.

Fleurpepper

Urmstongran

I didn’t pull up any drawbridge. Thank you GG13.
A friend of ours bought a small apartment up the road from us in October last year. Easy peasy” was how she described it! They, like us, are not wealthy.

Anyway didn’t most voters decide what they wanted out of the referendum on personal circumstances? Actually the majority I would hazard!

But you did- for those who intended to go and live there, especially on retirement. We have many friends who spent all their savings buying a doer-upper in France, Italy or Spain, and spent all their holidays working hard on renovation, garden, etc. - and again, all their savings along the way. With the intention of moving there when they retired. They can't do that now- and couldn't afford to retire early to beat the deadline.

Not only are their dreams shattered, they can't sell at a decent price to get their money back, as so many are in the same situation. They have to keep a property in the UK too- when they intended to sell to have money to live on.

It is not impossible to retire to France.

Friends bought and moved to France last year, from seeing the property, sale going through and them receiving their year long temporary residence took four months.

They are now halfway through process of applying for permanent residence.

It is mot impossible, just a few more bits of paperwork.

Possible, but not guaranteed, and very complicated and stressful.

Fleurpepper

Possible, but not guaranteed, and very complicated and stressful.

Not what they are saying.

Back to the OP. Having had time to think about it, it's still well done to Sunak for rescuing his party from one of their self-made messes but I can't see him getting much further.

GrannyGravy13, I’m in the process of moving to a country I once moved to pre-Brexit, and I can assure you it’s now much more expensive and complicated, with terms and conditions - such as minimum income guarantees, time spent in country to count towards residence permits and visa renewals, and more - that didn’t apply pre-Brexit.

GrannyGravy13

Fleurpepper

Urmstongran

I didn’t pull up any drawbridge. Thank you GG13.
A friend of ours bought a small apartment up the road from us in October last year. Easy peasy” was how she described it! They, like us, are not wealthy.

Anyway didn’t most voters decide what they wanted out of the referendum on personal circumstances? Actually the majority I would hazard!

But you did- for those who intended to go and live there, especially on retirement. We have many friends who spent all their savings buying a doer-upper in France, Italy or Spain, and spent all their holidays working hard on renovation, garden, etc. - and again, all their savings along the way. With the intention of moving there when they retired. They can't do that now- and couldn't afford to retire early to beat the deadline.

Not only are their dreams shattered, they can't sell at a decent price to get their money back, as so many are in the same situation. They have to keep a property in the UK too- when they intended to sell to have money to live on.

It is not impossible to retire to France.

Friends bought and moved to France last year, from seeing the property, sale going through and them receiving their year long temporary residence took four months.

They are now halfway through process of applying for permanent residence.

It is mot impossible, just a few more bits of paperwork.

I have lived here for 17 years and nothing in France is just a few bits of paperwork. 😂😂😂

Siope

GrannyGravy13, I’m in the process of moving to a country I once moved to pre-Brexit, and I can assure you it’s now much more expensive and complicated, with terms and conditions - such as minimum income guarantees, time spent in country to count towards residence permits and visa renewals, and more - that didn’t apply pre-Brexit.

I'm not surprised everything is more expensive now, that's life. Can I ask did you work in that country and were you in the system? We are considering retiring, (not yet of age), back to a European country we resided in pre Brexit, and so far are finding that country very accommodating IF you were in the tax & health system.

DaisyAnne

Back to the OP. Having had time to think about it, it's still well done to Sunak for rescuing his party from one of their self-made messes but I can't see him getting much further.

You are quite right DaisyAnne we have diverted the thread. It won’t be long before these discussions turn into a proverbial bunfight! He said, she said, they did etc.

On GBnews earlier Farage has pages of the newly agreed deal with the EU. Seems he and the DUP are astonished how little of what has been agreed upon is in fact noteworthy. Apparently the UK interpretation of the new Agreement is very much at odds to how Brussels sees things (including the Stormont Break).

Maybe ‘dear Rishi’ has been kippered and diced by Ursula’s team?

Further exploration of the details are being pored over. Sadly, just maybe, the initial hype and euphoria is somewhat displaced.

That said I think most of the voting public are sick to the back teeth of hearing the words ‘Northern Ireland Protocol’ so maybe apathy will win the day, regardless?

Joseanne, typed a long reply and it’s vanished!
Essentially, there are new costs for things like visas and visa renewal, getting proofs of income and other documents translated and notarised, extra health insurance requirements.
I was legal, it doesn’t help me get back, but will make life a bit simpler when I’m there (registering for healthcare, for example). My husband, though, wasn’t there before, so starting from scratch.

Also, visa restrictions mean limitations on other travel we had planned, which is a pain in the proverbial. It is so different (worse) to the days when we could just come and go.

And, of course, young people, who can’t get a non-lucrative/retirement visa will find it much more difficult.

But you did- for those who intended to go and live there, especially on retirement.

Goodness Fleurpepper why on EARTH would I, when casting my vote in the referendum as a UK resident and intending to spend MY retirement living and paying taxes in the UK, give a stuff about retirees who intended to bail from OUR country to live in France?? It wouldn’t make sense! I voted Leave for OUR country, it’s laws and sovereignty. Those who intended to upsticks would not be of concern to me as I cast my vote. They would be intending to be French residents. ‘Vive la France!’ Bon chance. But not my circus. Sorry. I voted the way I did for the future of OUR country. The UK. Not for future residents of the Dordogne or

So how well do you think your vote has worked out for the UK Ug?

Off topic, but thank you Siope. Lots of obstacles, but hopefully happy endings!

You said you had not drawn any drawbridge- so I replied that you did.

'I voted Leave for OUR country, it's laws and sovereignty'

not working very well, is it!!!

Those who had worked very hard at renovating a house to go and retire to in EU were 'traitors' then, as far as you are concerned!? You do realise those people have worked hard in the UK all their lives, often doing essential jobs, paying taxes, and contributing in so many ways. Many are still paying taxes in the UK.

Fact is, when they decided to buy old properties and spent so much time, effort and savings, planning for their future retirement- they had no idea this would happen and their lives made so so much more difficult.

Urmstongran

^But you did- for those who intended to go and live there, especially on retirement.^

Goodness Fleurpepper why on EARTH would I, when casting my vote in the referendum as a UK resident and intending to spend MY retirement living and paying taxes in the UK, give a stuff about retirees who intended to bail from OUR country to live in France?? It wouldn’t make sense! I voted Leave for OUR country, it’s laws and sovereignty. Those who intended to upsticks would not be of concern to me as I cast my vote. They would be intending to be French residents. ‘Vive la France!’ Bon chance. But not my circus. Sorry. I voted the way I did for the future of OUR country. The UK. Not for future residents of the Dordogne or

I’m going to try to answer this sensibly and politely.

Firstly, did you give any thought to how much money Brits retiring abroad save the country? I am (hopefully) moving, as did many Brits, to countries where healthcare is cheaper. Those countries recharge the NHS at that much cheaper rate, saving the UK a bomb. This is especially true for older people, as over-65 is when most people need the most healthcare. This, btw, is also why EU migrants don’t cost the NHS money).

Secondly, are you aware that there are a number of taxes which continue to be paid in the UK, regardless of where someone lives? All government pensions, for example; any income from rental property; potentially capital gains tax on property sales… Thus some emigrants, including retirees, will be supporting public services in the UK whilst not using them.

Thirdly, did you anticipate that Brexit would increase the number of highly-qualified, and generally highly paid, British nationals who moved to the EU, taking their taxes with them? An Oxford Uni study shows, in the first 5 years after the referendum, that migration from the UK to EU countries has increased by about 30% compared to pre-Brexit numbers. Britons living in other EU countries who decided to obtain EU member state passports as well as their UK ones had increased by more than 500% overall, and by 2,000% in Germany.

Fourthly, did you expect that so many EU citizens who were working in Britain would leave, again reducing the tax income of the UK, and decimating healthcare, social care, hospitality and agriculture, and, in the latter three instances, causing direct price rises for British residents?

Would I be correct in assuming you understood the financial (if not the social) and fiscal costs of migration trends which were pointed out repeatedly ahead of the vote, and felt that they were a price worth paying? And if so, a price worth paying for what direct and tangible benefits to the British economy, and British residents?

Joseanne, fingers crossed! Good luck to you too.

Indeed Siope. Some of these people are not wealthy. they could never have bought a house in the UK- but coud buy a fixer-upper and many parts of France and the EU. And they did continue to work hard in the UK all their lives. The low value of Sterling many well mean that they no longer can afford to move, or do not fulfil the EU requirements and cannot easily prove that they will be 100% of any help in the EU at some point as they age. Lots of practical and financial issues now getting in the way.

Please do not put words in my mouth Fleurpepper! I think ‘traitors’ is an unnecessarily inflammatory term. I just said they’d ‘bailed’. Or planned to. My vote could not possibly square the circle for every retiree’s choices. I based MY vote for MY country. And I’d do it again given the chance.

I only holiday in Europe and chose to buy a holiday home there.
Big difference.

Siope I’m not ignoring you but I’m just tired and about to turn to my bed soon. I will reply to your post tomorrow if I may?

Goodnight all.

ug would you really vote for this again? Truly? Given everything that has happened and is happening?

I simply can’t get my head around that.

I wonder if those who believed the lies that nothing would change, we hold all the cards, the EU is about to collapse anyway, there is a queue of nations waiting to trade with us etc still believe those things or they just cling to the “ sovereignty ” mantra, which actually means nothing in practical terms, apart from we can make things worse - sewage on the beaches anyone?

vegansrock

I wonder if those who believed the lies that nothing would change, we hold all the cards, the EU is about to collapse anyway, there is a queue of nations waiting to trade with us etc still believe those things or they just cling to the “ sovereignty ” mantra, which actually means nothing in practical terms, apart from we can make things worse - sewage on the beaches anyone?

That what they believed, if they still believe that there is no helping them and no point arguing.

I would not necessarily have expected people who voted for Brexit to have considered potential retirees. I would, however, have expected them to think about their grandchildren's future and their right to move freely, live, study and work across European nations. Before anybody says "they can still do that" I would urge them to do some research into third country employment rules and the cost of university courses.