New immigration bill - how on earth will it work?

19MaizieD

Maudi

Makes a change from "Faux outrage" from the left and name calling.

Do you know what 'faux' actually means, Maudi? or are you just parroting our Home Secretary?

Little snide comments again

Casdon

Glorianny

There's around 11,000 miles of coastline in this country. The idea that you can police all of it is ridiculous. Of course refugees will be put more at risk as boats try to make the journey in the dark, avoiding patrols and aiming for deserted beaches. Then they will disappear into the black economy and the power of the gang masters.
Of course the government won't have to count them.

That’s quite an irrelevant point, because the boats aren’t landing on Hebridean islands, are they? The south coast of England is the only entry point from the channel and that is about 340 miles.

There was a point when boats didn't cross the channel. Then they did. Now they don't cross the North Sea- how long before they do?
Just because a journey is difficult doesn't mean it won't be attempted. More people might drown of course but then they won't be our problem will they?

MaizieD what proportion of the Uk electorate is racist /xenophobic do you know? I can’t imagine that it is very high. I think it’s probably a minority.

As a guess the Conservative party is trying to reframe its quite tarnished image and so we have Rishi Sunak in saviour mode. I can just hear the sound bite… with suitable lighting effect in the run up to the next general election. Rishi has sorted the NI protocol, solved the humanitarian issue of the boat people and of course, the Uk is the most humanitarian country and welcomes asylum seekers which is why blah blah.
Shame I can’t leave here to live in Greece!

Whitewavemark2

fancythat

The new immigration bill will work if it is legal?
Or laws are changed to make it legal?
And there is the will to do so?

It will break international law which most countries in the world respect and are signed up to.

So there is no question that we can simply change the law

I get quite fuzzy at that point.
As to which points we are signed up to. And which we can change. And which we can withdraw from. Etc.

MaizieD what proportion of the Uk electorate is racist /xenophobic do you know? I can’t imagine that it is very high. I think it’s probably a minority.

I think you are right about it being a minority, ronib, but I think it is a substantial minority. in the low millions. Certainly enough to make the tories believe that their appalling Bill is a vote winner.

Given the very close result of the Brexit referendum I suspect that the 'minority was enough to swing the resulting No vote. Farage was certainly appealing to the xenophobes, and continues to do so.

Shame I can’t leave here to live in Greece!

Greece is not whiter than white when it comes to their reception and treatment of refugees...

It strikes me that Rishi is quite clever as regards law. Or has people around him that are.

Maudi

19MaizieD

Maudi

Makes a change from "Faux outrage" from the left and name calling.

Do you know what 'faux' actually means, Maudi? or are you just parroting our Home Secretary?

*Little snide comments again*

There is nothing at all 'faux' about the outrage, Maudi. It is utterly genuine.

So why repeat the nonsense that Braverman spouts?

Given the state of the NHS, Care Homes, fruit and veg farming, hospitality, etc., perhaps we need economic migrants, Albanian or not now that Brexit has reduced labour mobility.

I’ve yet to see any suggestions from any party or any individual that will address that aspect of the matter.
I’ll admit I don’t have a workable solution.

You must be walking around with your eyes closed, Mollygo.

I'm sorry to be snippy, but this is just ludicrous. Workable solutions have been proposed time and time again.

Of course, if you want to stop people ever becoming refugees that would be impossible.

MaizieD maybe Greece isn’t doing that well either with the migrant crisis. What I meant by this is that my freedom of movement, and that of my children, has stopped unless I can find a suitable relative to claim an EU passport. Ludicrous I know.

Does anyone know why asylum seekers can’t claim entry from Eurostar stations in France or French airports if, as suggested, an application doesn’t need to be made from the first country of escape? It would be much simpler to administer and would stop trafficking surely?

However strong convictions may be on either side, the biggest difficulty is that of accommodating the people who do manage to get across the channel. It seems that all asylum centres are at capacity, and many hotels the Government are using are full. Quite clearly, whatever your view, this cannot go on, unless those who feel the Government are doing the wrong thing with this or any other policy apart from allowing all immigrants to stay are prepared to take in these desperate people, or see them wandering the streets. We are far from alone - many European countries are struggling to cope, and Ireland has a huge problem as unprecedented numbers of people are arrivng in the country that was the biggeet exporter of people in history. What is the humane and civilised answer ? I wish I knew.

How it works is:

1. The government enacts legislation that appeals to what I call the Alf Garnett vote that delivered for them in 2019 in order to keep them and their votes on board.

2. The first time the government attempts to act under the legislation, a string of court cases and appeals ensues right up to the Supreme Court which rules, as the government knew all along it would, that the legislation contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights.

3. The government is then able to whistle to the Alf Garnetts that they are being prevented from enacting the Will of the People by the ECHR, Labour Party, BBC, Unelected Judges, Lefty Lawyers, Muslims and, of course, immigrants.

Rosina

However strong convictions may be on either side, the biggest difficulty is that of accommodating the people who do manage to get across the channel. It seems that all asylum centres are at capacity, and many hotels the Government are using are full. Quite clearly, whatever your view, this cannot go on, unless those who feel the Government are doing the wrong thing with this or any other policy apart from allowing all immigrants to stay are prepared to take in these desperate people, or see them wandering the streets. We are far from alone - many European countries are struggling to cope, and Ireland has a huge problem as unprecedented numbers of people are arrivng in the country that was the biggeet exporter of people in history. What is the humane and civilised answer ? I wish I knew.

The only reason those places are full is because the government takes so long to decide on asylum seekers. Some people wait over 2 years. Fast track the process and the hotels etc will empty.

Generally most people here have no personal or family experience of having to leave your home, your country, packing only what little you can physically carry. To risk your life to get to what you hope is a safe place. Possibly never to see family or friends again. Try to imagine what that feels like.
This has affected my direct family and leaving everything you know is the hardest decision not one lightly taken, it’s not a whim, which is why I feel so much sympathy for the plight of refugees from war, starvation or harsh political governance.
Although I have no time for our current government and worry where it is headed we still have what so many others don’t.
As for economic migrants I can understand that too. Wouldn’t we if brave enough, do the same thing?

LadyHonoriaDedlock

How it works is:

1. The government enacts legislation that appeals to what I call the Alf Garnett vote that delivered for them in 2019 in order to keep them and their votes on board.

2. The first time the government attempts to act under the legislation, a string of court cases and appeals ensues right up to the Supreme Court which rules, as the government knew all along it would, that the legislation contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights.

3. The government is then able to whistle to the Alf Garnetts that they are being prevented from enacting the Will of the People by the ECHR, Labour Party, BBC, Unelected Judges, Lefty Lawyers, Muslims and, of course, immigrants.

Some of this being covered on the new thread Whitewave has started.

If the government decide to leave the ECHR, which does not need a referendum, they could decide to write a similar bunch of laws, leaving out bits of ECHR they dont like, and leaving in bits they do? Could they not?

Glorianny wouldn't that be good - but sadly it is not what is happening - not here, and not in other countries it seems. We don't have enough staff to deal with the administration - but we are where we are and urgent action is needed. You would have to be made of stone not to feel compassion for people who have, as silverlining has said, done the unthinkable for most of us and left everything and everyone, but the practicalities, the reality, is that we are not coping and the whole situation is going to implode before long. Checks must be made - like it or not there will be an element of people attempting to enter this country who are dangerous and will cause problems. Do we ignore checks and take the risk? That will be fine until we have another Manchester bomb or terrorists happy to die to blow up a tube train. This is not silly hysteria - without some kind of control advantage will be taken.

👀

If immigration or asylum seeking was easier, do you think it would stop the traffickers?
If not, how do you suggest the trafficking is stopped?

Rosina

Glorianny wouldn't that be good - but sadly it is not what is happening - not here, and not in other countries it seems. We don't have enough staff to deal with the administration - but we are where we are and urgent action is needed. You would have to be made of stone not to feel compassion for people who have, as silverlining has said, done the unthinkable for most of us and left everything and everyone, but the practicalities, the reality, is that we are not coping and the whole situation is going to implode before long. Checks must be made - like it or not there will be an element of people attempting to enter this country who are dangerous and will cause problems. Do we ignore checks and take the risk? That will be fine until we have another Manchester bomb or terrorists happy to die to blow up a tube train. This is not silly hysteria - without some kind of control advantage will be taken.

The Manchester bomber was not an asylum seeker he was born in the UK.
To my knowledge there haven't been any terrorists attacks by any asylum seekers.
Of course it would be possible to fast track applications
It would also be possible to allow asylum seekers to work and pay taxes.
But that doesn't feed into the government's agenda for creating fear in the population does it?
Tony Ben on refugees
The way a government treats refugees is very instructive because it shows you how they would treat the rest of us if they thought they could get away with it.

Glorianny

Rosina

Glorianny wouldn't that be good - but sadly it is not what is happening - not here, and not in other countries it seems. We don't have enough staff to deal with the administration - but we are where we are and urgent action is needed. You would have to be made of stone not to feel compassion for people who have, as silverlining has said, done the unthinkable for most of us and left everything and everyone, but the practicalities, the reality, is that we are not coping and the whole situation is going to implode before long. Checks must be made - like it or not there will be an element of people attempting to enter this country who are dangerous and will cause problems. Do we ignore checks and take the risk? That will be fine until we have another Manchester bomb or terrorists happy to die to blow up a tube train. This is not silly hysteria - without some kind of control advantage will be taken.

The Manchester bomber was not an asylum seeker he was born in the UK.
To my knowledge there haven't been any terrorists attacks by any asylum seekers.
Of course it would be possible to fast track applications
It would also be possible to allow asylum seekers to work and pay taxes.
But that doesn't feed into the government's agenda for creating fear in the population does it?
Tony Ben on refugees
*The way a government treats refugees is very instructive because it shows you how they would treat the rest of us if they thought they could get away with it.*

Well said Glorianny.

SNP - QT - good questions.

Interesting tweet from Dan Hodges, right wing journalist:

(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
On small-boats. I've yet to find a Tory MP who thinks it will actually work. Or who believes even Braverman thinks it will work. One senior Tory said "she knows it won't work. Her plan is to eventually resign, and claim No.10/officials undermined her strategy".

Read that in conjunction with LHD's earlier 'explanation of how it works.

This legislation, if it even gets thorough parliament', will fail.

Yes - it’s all about the next election - fool the voter and win the election. “Othering” helped win them Brexit so they reckon this will win them the election.

Mollygo

If immigration or asylum seeking was easier, do you think it would stop the traffickers?
If not, how do you suggest the trafficking is stopped?

Safe routes?

Take up the French offer of a processing centre in France?

The traffickers only get their custom because there is no other way for asylum seekers to get to the UK.

Braverman and Sunak (today) breaking the ministerial code - talking about leftie civil servants and lawyers.

Very poor.