Charitable status and private schools

This is information posted on twitter. The person was privately educated as were her children she is a molecular scientist.

Emma 💛💙🇩🇰🇬🇧🇪🇺
@MonkEmma

So, how do Private schools benefit from their charitable status?

⏺️80% reduction in Business Rates
⏺️Claim Gift Aid on donations
⏺️No tax payable on their profits
⏺️No tax payable on their investment income
⏺️Stamp Duty relief
⏺️Covid loans

State schools not eligible for👆🏼

The Business rate reduction is thought to deprive local authorities of between £100 million and £144 million per year.

In Scotland this was removed from Private schools recently - so it’s perfectly possible to do!

The reason they’re eligible for all these financial benefits is that they’re classed as “charities” on the basis that they provide education (Tufton Street think tanks fall
Under this category too

But Private schools provide lots of charity to disadvantaged children, right?

Umm… not so much

Only 1% of children in private school come from the most deprived backgrounds

Many provide scholarships but this is usually 10% off the fees - totally unattainable to most

But private schools benefit local schools through partnerships, don’t they?

That, too, seems fairly minimal.

Inviting local kids to watch their theatre productions, and joint Carol singing forms the majority of the “partnerships”

I’m sure some schools do offer more meaningful partnerships, but as that report found, it’s rarely benefitting the most disadvantaged, and more often than not, used as a marketing exercise aimed at attracting new students.

Ok, so on to the claims about who would be affected by adding VAT to fees and/or removing tax breaks

Firstly, the IFS calculate that the net effect of adding VAT to fees would be a 15% increase in costs.

But that wouldn’t have to be passed on to parents

Schools could absorb the costs in the short term by
⏺️lowering fees so parents pay the same
⏺️increasing class sizes
⏺️Not buy new equipment/swimming pools🤪 for a couple of years
⏺️dip into their investments
⏺️Sell off amenities
And they can always apply to become academies
10/

Don’t forget, the top Private schools increased their assets by 44% form 2015-2020!

There’s definitely a bit of wriggle room there!
But not all parents are rich…

That’s certainly true, but it’s all relative!

The overwhelming majority are at the top end of the income ladder

A small minority aren’t, but if you can afford £15K (average) from your taxed income AFTER paying all your bills, you’re not poor!

There’s a myth that adding VAT would cause a mass exodus into the state sector.

In the last 20 years, school fees have risen 55%, yet numbers have remained at a steady 6-7% throughout that period.

The IFS calculates that these tax increases might lead to just 3-7% lea

There are 9.1 million school age children in England

~560,000 private school children.

Even IF 7% of them moved, (and it wouldn’t happen at the same time, or straight away) that would be around 40K.

Last year, our state schools managed to absorb that from 🇺🇦,🇭🇰 and 🇦🇫

The IFS also points out that our state school population is set to fall by 100,000 per year in the next 7 years - more than enough to absorb ALL private school children!

Since 2010 the difference between what is spent on a state school child and a private school child has more than doubled.

While 560,000 children can afford to go to private school, 2.2 million children need free school meals, and that number is rising year on year.

The IFS calculate that adding VAT onto school fees and removing the tax breaks would be a net gain of £1.6 Billion (even taking into about the cost of having to absorb some children into the state system)

That’s not to be sniffed at!

It would raise much needed income.

It won’t lead to an “overwhelming” of state schools - the numbers simply don’t show that.

Private Schools could absorb some, if not all the costs.

MOST parents would find the money. If you can find £15K, you’ll find another £3K

It’s an emotive subject, I know.

Everyone wants the best for their children.

But only a privileged tiny minority can afford to send their children to private school.

They may forgo some luxuries to do so, but millions forgo luxuries simply to feed and clothe their kids.

Whitewavemark2

IFS report on proposal of VAT on private schools

t.co/5IPVDTPJyd

Ww2 the author of the report has been in higher education for at least 10 years- at what cost to the taxpayer?
The author has posted a cv online showing universities attended but there’s no mention of schools attended.
I am appalled by the lack of thought the report shows.

Btw Luke Sibieta is named as the author of the IFS report- who is Emma Monk?

If all the rich parents had to send their children to state schools look how they would improve all the best teachers flocking to get jobs in them !!!

BlueBelle

If all the rich parents had to send their children to state schools look how they would improve all the best teachers flocking to get jobs in them !!!

It’s not a legal requirement to have any teaching qualifications to teach in an Independent school, so not all of those
teachers would be rushing to state schools.

From today’s Sunday Telegraph.
🤣

It's time for Starmer to remedy Labour's mistake under Attlee and abolish the public/private schools.

BlueBelle

If all the rich parents had to send their children to state schools look how they would improve all the best teachers flocking to get jobs in them !!!

MATT funny 👍

All the rich parents would relocate to "nice" parts of London, Surrey, Hertfordshire for schools, but sadly the teachers wouldn't be able to afford to move and live in these areas!!
If the IFS report shows no downwards movement in private school attendance over 20 years, despite recessions, then these institutions must be doing a pretty good job at riding the waves!

Grantanow the major public schools can’t be abolished - they have contingency plans and land overseas to relocate if necessary. In fact a number of public schools already have established schools overseas.
Surely it makes better sense to widen access rather than limit it?

The IFS calculate that adding VAT onto school fees and removing the tax breaks would be a net gain of £1.6 Billion (even taking into about the cost of having to absorb some children into the state system)

If say half of the private children went to state schools instead the capacity would have to rise by 3.5%, at todays costs thats over £4Bn it’s a no win situation.
The fact is that private parents are saving the state £7500 per child per year.

There are no votes on the issue either because anyone who feels strongly is going to vote Labour anyway

Grantanow

It's time for Starmer to remedy Labour's mistake under Attlee and abolish the public/private schools.

No

Katie59

The IFS calculate that adding VAT onto school fees and removing the tax breaks would be a net gain of £1.6 Billion (even taking into about the cost of having to absorb some children into the state system)

If say half of the private children went to state schools instead the capacity would have to rise by 3.5%, at todays costs thats over £4Bn it’s a no win situation.
The fact is that private parents are saving the state £7500 per child per year.

There are no votes on the issue either because anyone who feels strongly is going to vote Labour anyway

Thanks Kate59
I am sure that the figures would prove that it is not economically advantageous to close public and private schools.

Grantanow

It's time for Starmer to remedy Labour's mistake under Attlee and abolish the public/private schools.

Starmer won’t do that, and I don’t think it is necessary.

However, what I would like him to concentrate on is having the best education possible for our children, who should be seen as a country’s asset, where education brings innovative, creative and cultured individuals who would have so much to contribute to society and the economy.

Grantanow

It's time for Starmer to remedy Labour's mistake under Attlee and abolish the public/private schools.

Why?

Why not ban private medical care, home ownership, anything that some people might work and strive for? Even private enterprise.
Everyone earning the same salary, living in grey blocks.

Everything State owned, everyone equal (apart from the Government of course).

Then wait for the revolution when people want to throw off the shackles of communism.
Hasn't this been tried already and rejected? 🤔
Visiting countries newly liberated from the Soviet Union was very interesting.

Whitewavemark2

Grantanow

It's time for Starmer to remedy Labour's mistake under Attlee and abolish the public/private schools.

Starmer won’t do that, and I don’t think it is necessary.

However, what I would like him to concentrate on is having the best education possible for our children, who should be seen as a country’s asset, where education brings innovative, creative and cultured individuals who would have so much to contribute to society and the economy.

Yes.
Common sense.

And in decent buildings fit for purpose.

Frankly I suspect that given the same benefits a state school education would far exceed a private education.

The huge problem that state schools have to deal with is deprivation which begins at birth. It is a massive uphill climb which is why the Sure Start programme was so imaginative and effective - it gives those deprived children a leg up before they start school, so that when they enter main stream, teachers can concentrate for more on “normal” teaching and not so much on remedial stuff.

They were effective but the 'hard to reach' families tended to avoid them, there was some work going on near the end at targeting those particular families, I feel that would be a useful piece of work if ever we get a labour government.

Katie59

The IFS calculate that adding VAT onto school fees and removing the tax breaks would be a net gain of £1.6 Billion (even taking into about the cost of having to absorb some children into the state system)

If say half of the private children went to state schools instead the capacity would have to rise by 3.5%, at todays costs thats over £4Bn it’s a no win situation.
The fact is that private parents are saving the state £7500 per child per year.

There are no votes on the issue either because anyone who feels strongly is going to vote Labour anyway

I believe that the numbers are dropping in state schools so absorption would not be an issue.

Frankly it won’t happen in any case.

And the fact is private education is not saving the state £7500 per child per year.

Surely that should read, " It's my opinion it's time for Starmer to remedy Labour's mistake under Attlee and abolish the public/private schools.", Grantanow. You are not, as I'm sure you are aware, in the majority.

According to a recent YouGov poll, carried out this September, 40% opposed a ban on private schools, 27% don't know and 27% support it. It seems that more people want a mixed economy and choice than to live in a state run country. You don't seem to understand the very politics you insist on (a red flag in itself) are the ones likely to put more people off your party than make it appealing.

“I believe that the numbers are dropping in state schools so absorption would not be an issue.

Frankly it won’t happen in any case.

And the fact is private education is not saving the state £7500 per child per year.”

That’s just your opinion, you have an idealogical bias, I dont believe it’s an election issue.

If parents want to spend 3 times the cost because they think private is better, that’s their choice.

Katie59

“I believe that the numbers are dropping in state schools so absorption would not be an issue.

Frankly it won’t happen in any case.

And the fact is private education is not saving the state £7500 per child per year.”

That’s just your opinion, you have an idealogical bias, I dont believe it’s an election issue.

If parents want to spend 3 times the cost because they think private is better, that’s their choice.

Um - no read the IFS report, my comments are drawn from there.

I’m not against choice - absolutely not, but i am For the best state education that can be given to the country’s children.

Whitewavemark2

The huge problem that state schools have to deal with is deprivation which begins at birth. It is a massive uphill climb which is why the Sure Start programme was so imaginative and effective - it gives those deprived children a leg up before they start school, so that when they enter main stream, teachers can concentrate for more on “normal” teaching and not so much on remedial stuff.

Deprivation is a factor in some state schools, but let’s not run away with the idea that all schools are struggling with deprivation. Most are not! There are some state schools that are so good that they outstrip many independent schools with their results and they are highly sought after by parents. The majority of state schools do appear to fall into the ‘good enough’ description but are not outstanding. Then there are the ones that take their children from areas of deprivation. I worked in one such school for some 17 years, although during my career, I also worked in other schools that were not in deprived areas.

maddyone

Whitewavemark2

The huge problem that state schools have to deal with is deprivation which begins at birth. It is a massive uphill climb which is why the Sure Start programme was so imaginative and effective - it gives those deprived children a leg up before they start school, so that when they enter main stream, teachers can concentrate for more on “normal” teaching and not so much on remedial stuff.

Deprivation is a factor in some state schools, but let’s not run away with the idea that all schools are struggling with deprivation. Most are not! There are some state schools that are so good that they outstrip many independent schools with their results and they are highly sought after by parents. The majority of state schools do appear to fall into the ‘good enough’ description but are not outstanding. Then there are the ones that take their children from areas of deprivation. I worked in one such school for some 17 years, although during my career, I also worked in other schools that were not in deprived areas.

No of course not, I live in the south east and schools like the ones my grandchildren attended are anything but deprived!

But there is no denying that the only educational establishments who take these deprived children as a matter of course are state schools, and it these that will benefit from things like a strong sure start support and proper funding.

Whilst on the subject, I wonder how much consideration has been given to the social and community impact if pupils have to leave the independent sector. Not just in terms of disruption to the education of those leaving the sector, but these very children would probably find it very hard socially. Surely it would be quite clear to everyone that they were moving school due entirely to their parents having insufficient financial means to continue their education at their private school. I foresee unwanted problems here unless handled sensitively by the state schools who may not have the expertise.

I also think the sheer numbers would bring about tension within communities in relation to school catchment areas and first choices.
I don't see how can a new government will be able to predict which areas will be swamped, and how it will rectify this with more classrooms and more teachers overnight?

I'm certainly not gloating here, it is too important an issue for that, but I think that ironically, the policy might initially do more harm than good to schools in the state system who would need to accommodate this scenario sprung on them.