Hamas has attacked Israel

It’s impossible to change the past, but it’s possible to bring about a better and brighter future for Israel and Palestine (Gaza)

When the leaders of Hamas and the Israeli Government decide to talk and yes they also have to compromise, then and only then will the innocent civilians on both sides be able to sleep safely in their beds without the fear of their homes being bombed and their loved ones kidnapped, tortured and/or murdered.

I'm not arguing with you, Whitewave, I was just commenting on Rory Stewart's potted history and adding something to it.

There's enough difference of opinion on this thread already, it was a comment, not an argument.

And tragedies in the world too. ☹

Now that you’ve got that out of the way

🤔

I'll leave you to it.

maddyone

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Surely the problem is, just how far do you go back? I'm pretty ignorant of the history but from little I know it seems to be extremely complex. Gaza and The West bank were never supposed to be part of Israel, I believe they were occupied by Israel during the 6 day war and although Gaza is a self ruling state, the blockade by Israel has had punishing consequences to those who live there. UNICEF believes that there are nearly a million children living there. 1.7 m refugees live in the camps that have sprung up in the territory as Palestinians fled from the violence of the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948, and continued to grow as more Palestinians were displaced as a result of the second conflict in 1967. It is basically a hell hole! tbh I don't think it is in any way anti semitic to discuss the reasons why a terrorist group like Hamas could easily gain a foothold.

I’ll carry on and it will still be very potted because there is so much of it, but as I said feel free to fill in what you see as vital gaps. None of the following is reference to RS. This is from my head - so excuse and correct what you may see as errors.

So

The Balfour Declaration received huge criticism in Palestine who said that a European state had no business deciding the future of Palestine. But it got growing support in Britain, and at the end of the war the British were mandated by European powers to put the Balfour declaration into action. No one seems to have the first clue how this would come about, and the British military in Palestine advised the British government that it will never be achieved peacefully.
The broader Arab world saw it as a betrayal by the British

foxie48

maddyone

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Surely the problem is, just how far do you go back? I'm pretty ignorant of the history but from little I know it seems to be extremely complex. Gaza and The West bank were never supposed to be part of Israel, I believe they were occupied by Israel during the 6 day war and although Gaza is a self ruling state, the blockade by Israel has had punishing consequences to those who live there. UNICEF believes that there are nearly a million children living there. 1.7 m refugees live in the camps that have sprung up in the territory as Palestinians fled from the violence of the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948, and continued to grow as more Palestinians were displaced as a result of the second conflict in 1967. It is basically a hell hole! tbh I don't think it is in any way anti semitic to discuss the reasons why a terrorist group like Hamas could easily gain a foothold.

Well I’ve gone back 3000 years😄😄😄

Forget the history according to Rory Stewart, we are where we are and it’s enough to know that a lot of Palestinians voted Hamas into power so must agree with their aims.They may now be regretting voting for them.
All you get with a terrorist organisation is terror. It’s set the Palestinian cause back by probably a century.

You don’t need to go on about the history Whitewavemark2 unless you enjoy it, we’re all capable of looking it up if we’re interested from various sources.
This thread is for what’s happening right now surely to goodness.

It hasn't done the Israeli cause much good either. If Israel had just left Gaza alone and not carried on as others here have mentioned there would have been no need for such a catastrophic pent up sense of unfairness with appalling outcomes.

And I don’t think laughing emojis are appropriate either.
Anyone see the photo of the family of five, three young children that were pulled out of their safe room and killed in an Israeli house?

You don’t know that Aveline
Once Hamas had been invited by the people in Gaza to take over it was inevitable that at some time they would decide on doing something terrible.Their aim isn’t to power share in any way with Israel but to wipe it off the map.

Throughout the immediate post Ww1 years - agreements were set up with the Ottomans, which allowed for land to be put aside for the Jewish population.

However support of the Balfour Declaration began to quickly wane, particularly after the Palin Commission, and the huge pushback from the Christian and Muslim population of Palestine. Riots took place and a number of Jews were killed. The Arabs were not prepared to share power as had been suggested, because they felt that as the majority they had the sole mandate to rule.

Public opinion in the U.K. was growing against the idea fostered by the DM and Northcliff’s opposition.

So between the wars we saw the Jews emigrating to Palestine in growing numbers, and buying land from rich Arabs, which in turn meant that the peasant population was being displaced, with growing resentment.

I THINK that the Germans pre WW2, but after the rise of Hitler also toyed with the idea of transporting German Jews to Palestine. Nothing came of it, but I'm not sure of details. Anyone else with any knowledge of this?

Jaberwok

I THINK that the Germans pre WW2, but after the rise of Hitler also toyed with the idea of transporting German Jews to Palestine. Nothing came of it, but I'm not sure of details. Anyone else with any knowledge of this?

Yes definitely. What happened was that a German philosopher and anti-Semite picked up on the Zionist idea and ran with it. Hitler read this and that is how they tried initially anyway to “encourage” their Jewish population to emigrate

I think exploring the history of this very complex situation is both interesting, and helpful in trying to understand the awful situation that is now unfolding, to which there seems no answer. Thank you Whitewavemark2 for the information you have provided.

Again Thank you Ww2. Yes of course it would have been 'encouraging ' Jews to leave,not actually transporting them. It's all such a tangled web going SO far back with a dreadful situation about to get so much worse. It's just awful.

My point is “if you don’t know where you come from, how do you know where you are going?”

So in the period leading up to the 30s things were relatively quiet in Palestine, the Arabs refused to share politically with the Jews, and Jewish emigration slowed down considerably after the first rush. But throughout that period, the Jews continued to consolidate themselves by purchasing more land from the Arabs.

Late 1920s/early 30s a Jewish Agency was formed. The Arabs also had a meeting with many other Arab nations in which they were warned if the threat from Zionism.

So now the 30s.

Events in Europe once again imposed themselves on Palestine, and the number of Jews emigrating to escape persecution in Germany and Europe more generally rose exponentially throughout this period. Not only did the Jewish population grow in Palestine, but so do did the Arab population who were attracted to Palestine by its growing economy and opportunities.

The Arabs demanded that Jewish emigration cease, that there should be a boycott of Jewish goods and transfer of land be stopped.

The British in Palestine offered that a council should be set up with the majority of members being Christian and Muslim to match the population %.

The Jews refused saying it would stop their “home” in its tracts.

It never took off as London refused it.

This revolt has massive ramifications.

First there was the violent Arab revolt at such an intensity that the British were force to bring in 10s of thousands of troops and most notably - The Zionists armed the Jewish population.

The armed rebellion continued up until the second world war.

A commission in the U.K. that took place during the Arab revolt stated that the Balfour declaration was unworkable and the only way forward must be partition. This was the first time that the British talked about a Jewish state, and recommended that land be transferred to the Jews which was much bigger than originally proposed, as well as forcibly repatriating Arabs.
The result was even greater violence.

It is estimated that the British killed something like 5000 Arabs. Their leaders had either been killed or deported and the heart went out of the Arab movement. But the Jewish population grew from strength to strength with a leader called Ben Gurion.

This takes us up to WW2

Oreo it feels more like Israel has been trying to destroy Palestine for decades by constant infringement, harassment and restriction. Of course this could be their big opportunity to reduce Gaza to rubble.

I hope others are enjoying your history lesson Whitewavemark2 but I’m seeing it as a distraction from the horrors which have just unfolded in Israel.Families being murdered in their own houses, kids, teenage girls, grandmas murdered or roughly taken hostage, which for some women we can guess what happens once in Gaza.
Peaceful happy young people gunned down at a festival.Hundreds of their bodies found there.
I simply can’t join in a semi academic interested discussion about the past when the reality on the ground is so appalling.
Am ashamed of being a Labour voter too when I see the protesting outside Conference shouting about Palestinian rights.No sympathy from them about what’s happened to anyone Jewish of course! At least I thank God that Corbyn isn't in number10.
Most know that the middle east situation has been a fraught one for a long time and have sympathy for both sides, but there are many even here in the UK that only ever see the Palestinian side.Starmer sees both sides and has sympathyfor Israel and so does Sunak. Was cheered to find the lighted Israeli flag in Downing St and blue and white lights all over the Parliament buildings.

It does not need to be a distraction, unless you allow it to be. The two should be able to run in random.