6 Day Doctors Strike

Primrose53

foxie48

Primrose53

ronib

PAs need a masters degree. That’s a 4 year course.

Yes, I said that in my earlier post.

But you don't!

?????

You need a first degree in either a life or health science followed by EITHER a two year diploma course or an accredited Masters which is almost certainly a two year course of study (you can do a masters in less time than that!). I put a link to the requirements which you haven't noticed!

Master’s degrees from Oxford and Cambridge may be applied for following graduation with a bachelor’s degree, no further study required …

Primrose53

Caught the tail end of a discussion about junior doctors strike just now.

They explained what a Physician Associate is. Someone with a Masters degree and 2 years training rather than the 6 years that Junior doctors do. It also said they are paid quite a bit more. Didn’t know that.

Thankyou or telling me this

I have a telephone appointment on Monday in Outpatients with a Trainee Physician Associate.
So you do not see a ''proper'' doctor now.

We have a 10,000 shortage of doctors

The bottom line is that PA’s are not doctors, they do not have the same skills (if they did, they’d be called doctors) and trying to fob off the public that they are the same thing is taking us for fools.

Well the medical profession in the guise of the BMA is certainly taking us for fools that’s for sure.

SueDonim

The bottom line is that PA’s are not doctors, they do not have the same skills (if they did, they’d be called doctors) and trying to fob off the public that they are the same thing is taking us for fools.

My understanding though is that some general practices are choosing to employ PAs, so the role must be seen by their businesses to have a role to play.
I wonder if it isn’t the role or qualifications of these individuals that is the issue so much as a combination of lack of role clarity, lack of medical supervision, and a lack on the part of the PAs in recognising their own limitations.

Personally? I think lack of supervision Casdon.

And, I suspect, failure to recognise their limitations. If you’re not aware that symptoms you’re presented with may be of conditions A or B because you only have knowledge of A, do you seek the assistance of a doctor or gaily go ahead and diagnose the only condition you’re aware of, whereas in fact the patient is suffering from B?

a nurse having to teach them how to cannulate

I can’t believe I’ve just read this complete rubbish!
My daughter learned to cannulate whilst she was a student! A medical student, not a nurse, nor an over paid, not even half trained PA! She actually practiced on her dad! Where does this total rubbish come from. If a nurse was showing anyone how to cannulate, they were students, not already qualified doctors.

ronib

Also some assumptions are being made that the PA I saw wasn’t under qualified. I think 4 years degree to masters level plus 2 years specialised training. He wasn’t just newly out of medical school either and knew his stuff. PAs have the option of converting to full medical status I believe.

The degree a PA holds can be anything. So a PA could hold a degree in the lesser spotted wigwag bird! Or realistically, Drama, European History, Geography, English Literature, or any other subject. Could you please enlighten me as to how a subject completely unrelated to Medicine, or even the human body, can possibly be well qualified?

Additionally how can two years post grad training in any way be equated to the six year medical degree course that my daughter took? Then two years training as F1 and F2? Followed by a further year working in the Specialism of Mental Health, followed by three full years training as a GP (GP is consultant level for those unaware.) And all that before she was considered completely trained. How can two years training equate with that???
Where is all the Pharmacology and Physiology that she spent two solid years studying at university? I’m shocked that so many of you are totally unaware of what it takes to become a doctor.

Ronb I’m pleased that your conjunctivitis was sorted out satisfactorily. It is a very painful condition and can easily become serious if left untreated. However a nurse could have treated you just as well.
It used to be possible to buy treatment from the pharmacy for conjunctivitis, but the government changed the rules because too many pharmacies were making mistakes, so now you need to see a doctor/medic to get the right diagnosis and treatment.

Wait for it ladies, there will be mistakes made by PAs and people will receive incorrect diagnosis and treatment. It’s only a matter of time.

From what I’ve read, it’s already happened.

I would rather be treated by a PA than a one year medic

Oh my Lord. Two years of training rather than seven years!

After advice from the Pharmacist I paid for antibiotic eye drops in our village for my conjunctivitis last November.
The junior doctors strike scares me, I was in A&E last June when a strike was on, the treatment I had, for a condition that may recur, was brutal, as confirmed to me at a follow up appointment. I’m spending the next 5 days with my fingers crossed.

foxie thank you for information regarding the degree course a PA may hold. I was under the impression that any degree would qualify, but from what you say, it needs to be health or science related. That at least is a relief, but only a small one. PAs are inadequately trained or prepared and people will become very ill or die because they’ve not seen a properly qualified doctor. I find it all extremely frightening, and totally irresponsible by the government. There is no need for this role, we have properly qualified nurses who can treat a range of illnesses and conditions, and they will refer on to the doctors where necessary.

Casdon those issues you mention are ones I mentioned earlier amd are indeed part of the problem, which is why PA’s need to be regulated.

As to why GP surgeries employ them, that’s simple. They’re cheaper than a real doctor but tick the right boxes!

Ziplok

I agree about the label “Junior doctors”. It’s outdated and causes a whole load of misunderstanding, as evidenced on this thread.

It is time that the label junior doctors was abolished. I don't know why doctors put up with people thinking that a junior doctor must be inexperienced or fresh out of medical school. The term is disrespectful.

I agree too.

In fact, although you say it is outdated, Ziplok, it must be relatively new as the term junior doctor includes those who were not so long ago known as house officers, senior house officers and specialty registrars.

Just on the news tonight video of the junior doctor smiling and looking really happy to be on strike. 88,000 appointments cancelled, a person sat in A&E for 16 hours in a chair waiting, hospitals appealing for junior doctors to come in to help as all hospitals in crisis. People will die, thousands are suffering and they are outside smiling and looking happy with their placards. Thankfully none of my DAC are doctors I would be so ashamed of them. Message on TV said don't go to A&E unless it's a life and death situation. Disgusting

a person sat in A&E for 16 hours in a chair waiting

That's normal here, even longer (some patients had waited for 3 days in the MAU when I was there) and they're not on strike in Wales.

I had a cataract operation a month ago that went wrong. Hoping the check up appointment next week won’t be cancelled. So far so good. Have four consultants monitoring me. It hasn’t gone well but I’m hoping it will settle eventually. I can watch TV and read the paper thank goodness but it’s far from perfect.

I support the doctors and feel the government are just being confrontational for the sake of it. They don’t give a toss about waiting lists etc doctors are worth way more than they are currently paid. My electrician earns more than a doctor in A and E. Whoever is health secretary this week needs to get round the table and sort this out.

I have limited sympathy with the doctors, basic pay is £30k or so for 40 hours then extra payments for out of hours, unsocial, weekend etc and they are still learning. I found a Junior Doctor in his first year was pretty useless, an experienced nurse knew far more.
On the plus side there is security of employment a good pension and a pay scale that takes them to £100k and beyond. Yes it’s tough in the first few years but you make it up quickly.

I would have loved an employer who paid over 20% of my salary into my pension. Most I got was 6% in local government and once I was self employed it was entirely down to what I could afford to contribute.

It's just another government ploy, find a scapegoat. The NHS is in a mess....Well it's the fault of those greedy junior doctors! Interestingly, the pay review board used to recommend a salary increase without restrictions but now it has to be "affordable" During austerity this has acted as a brake on doctor's salaries which is why they have fallen so far behind.

I don't have a problem with MAPs as long as they are properly trained, regulated and supported. Many are nurses who have had a further two years of training, it gives them more career progression and responsability. My daughter works with anaesthetic assistants (AAs)and that is what they are "assistants" trained to do certain jobs that would not be the remit of a nurse and it relieves the anaesthetist of some of the more routine jobs. They have to be very well supervised. However, I think there is concern that PAs are not as well supervised because hospitals are frequently under staffed. This doesn't happen with AAs because if a theatre doesn't have the right staffing, the operation is cancelled.

I wonder why the pension contribution can’t be reduced from 20 to 10 percent in the first two years of working and the difference given in pay?
It seems fairly obvious that the last two years of working life are the most highly paid for medics and any shortfall in pension contributions could be made at that point. Or some such arrangement?