6 Day Doctors Strike

My local government pension, given the few years (13) that I paid into it and the low salary which I was earning throughout, has performed well. I can almost understand those colleagues who just hung around (doing, in the legal department, the bare minimum and leaving on the dot) waiting for their pension - but Lord, it was boring. What a waste of their lives and talents. Obviously not the same as your work Iam, which unlike mine would have made a real difference.

GSM - good point. My experience on starting work 3as of a very poor legal department. This changed with the arrival of a hugely over enthusiastic newly qualified lawyer. Within a few years she was head of children’s services. What a difference. She and I once set to improving the initial statement of a good social worker who’d no idea what judges expect. She and I sat with him till 3am improving his statement. He learned so much and in another High Court case later, praised by the judge.
You’re so right, it’s people working hard, caring about what they do.

What relevance does the pension taken from local government of somebody who retired some years ago have to the current pay and pension prospects of junior doctors? Junior doctors now have much less favourable terms for the pensions they will receive - and they do not do the bare minimum in work either. Apples are not bananas.

When I worked in local government my employer contributed 6% of my salary to what was then called the superannuation fund and I contributed 6%. It was 6% of not a lot - when I started work I earned £750 pa, and when I left about £9k. Compare that with the NHS contributing 20.6% of a doctor’s salary into their pension scheme, throughout their career.

It is highly unlikely that a Labour Government could afford the junior doctors pay demands! The real problem with the NHS, as with health services in many other countries, is that they are simply unaffordable!

The NHS has a key role to pay in the UK domestic economy. It's calculated that every £1 invested in the NHS produces £4 of economic activity. It sustains private sector businesses, large and small both directly by sourcing goods and services from them, or indirectly as the wages of NHS employees are spent into the domestic economy. The state will get back a large part of its investment by way of taxation of various forms as money moves around the economy.

It is complete and utter twaddle to say that government can't afford to pay the doctor's wage demands, or any other public sector wage demands, as the State, via government spending, is a key issuer of money into the economy. While there are resources to be purchased the State can purchase them.

One of the main reasons for the utterly dire state of the UK economy and our public services is that ever since 2010 the government has cut spending in the public sector and so reduced the supply of money in the UK.

Taxation doesn't fund spending...

Germanshepherdsmum

When I worked in local government my employer contributed 6% of my salary to what was then called the superannuation fund and I contributed 6%. It was 6% of not a lot - when I started work I earned £750 pa, and when I left about £9k. Compare that with the NHS contributing 20.6% of a doctor’s salary into their pension scheme, throughout their career.

But it’s not relevant what you paid in a completely different rewards system years ago is it?
The employee contribution has increased in the current NHS scheme as well of course, and when you are paid poorly a 20% employer pension contribution is only partially beneficial. People should be paid the appropriate rate for their skills and experience, the smoke and mirrors approach you are putting forward to try to argue that isn’t the case is not fooling anybody.

20% of a doctot’s salary isn’t chickenfeed. Paid poorly? I don’t think so.

growstuff

Amalegra

It is highly unlikely that a Labour Government could afford the junior doctors pay demands! The real problem with the NHS, as with health services in many other countries, is that they are simply unaffordable! Our NHS was founded in 1948 for a much smaller population and when medicine was far less sophisticated. Even so, in the very first year of its existence it declared that more funding was needed and the government had to duly oblige. And so it has continued to a point where over 44% of all public spending goes to them to the detriment of many other essential services. We must reform the health service, in my opinion. A public private service may be the way as in other countries. If people are happy to spend on luxuries, such as take aways, holidays, new cars etc, surely they would not object to paying some sort of health insurance for their most important possession, their health? For those who cannot afford to pay there should of course be public provision. By the way the excellent pension packages that many NHS staff receive are never mentioned are they?

How do you work out that 44% of all public spending goes to the NHS?

The total public sector expenditure on services in 2022/3 was £1,067.5 billion, of which £211.6 was spent on health.

Source:

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/public-spending-statistics-release-july-2023/public-spending-statistics-july-2023#central-government-own-expenditure

9.3% of GDP was spent on the NHS in 2022.

Germanshepherdsmum

20% of a doctot’s salary isn’t chickenfeed. Paid poorly? I don’t think so.

Junior doctors are paid poorly. Can you think of another profession which pays somebody who undergoes the level of study doctors do and the continuing exams they undertake to progress to the next level that is paid at the rates they are?

www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pensions/additional-pensions-advice/nhs-pension-contribution-rates

fullfact.org/health/bma-junior-doctors-hourly-pay/

They are paid by the taxpayer. They can’t expect the level of remuneration available in the private sector, where salaries are paid by clients/customers who decide what they are willing to pay. See my post above as to actual rates of pay and also what the poster with experience of doctors’ pay said. We’re being fed lies by the BMA, doctors and media.

It's all about the sort of society we wish to live in. Currently the top CEOs get paid as much as the average annual wage by lunch time on one day of the week. Bankers who bet against the success of UK businesses can make a lot of money without creating anything of value, accountants who find the loop holes in our tax system save rich people lots of money etc etc, people who add real value to our world by making us well, teaching our kids and looking after the elderly are undervalued. Choose the world you want to live in, I know which I prefer and will vote accordingly.

I am perfectly content with the society I live in, but then I spent most of my career ‘eating what I killed’, being only as good as my last job. I have never had the security of a job for life, like the rest of the people you mention.

Germanshepherdsmum

They are paid by the taxpayer. They can’t expect the level of remuneration available in the private sector, where salaries are paid by clients/customers who decide what they are willing to pay. See my post above as to actual rates of pay and also what the poster with experience of doctors’ pay said. We’re being fed lies by the BMA, doctors and media.

If you read the FullFact Louella posted, we aren’t being fed lies by the BMA, we are given the lowest case scenario of a newly qualified junior doctor. The average basic pay of junior doctors of all 4 grades is £43,000. Twist it as you will, it’s paltry compared with private sector pay. Where we disagree is that you appear to think that in a commercial environment people should legitimately be offered huge payments because of market forces, but that it’s acceptable for doctors to be paid much less because they are in the public sector. I don’t.

We must agree to differ. My preference is to believe what the ex-NHS director posted above. People in the private sector are paid by the private sector. Those in the public sector are paid by the taxpayer. It is pointless to compare the two.

My great nephew put the work in to become a doctor from the age of 10 that I am aware of, putting in all the effort and extra work needed to make sure he had the grades needed to become a doctor. This meant staying behind at school to do extra studies and often missing out on social life with friends. He didnt mind....he needed to comple extra maths for example for the course he wanted. He succeeded and has worked long, arduous hours as a junior doctor including being a locum on a covid ward during the pandemic. He has never complained but it totally got to me when a relative shared a job advert on FB, forget what it was for but either a shop assistant or coffee shop server, around the £14/15 mark and he commented that was more than he gets an hour. How can a till operator be paid more than someone who has your life in thier hands? I fully support them despite being impacted by cancelled appointments and hope the government comes to their privileged senses......yes, most if not all can afford private insurance. Should be a condition of being elected that they have to use the NHS......we would soon see investment then I can assure you.

But don’t all medical students face the same challenges in taking on medicine? There are some other degrees in the sciences which also require hard graft.
I wish the poorly paid till operators, baristas and anyone on £14 an hour could get some respect for their work which has no career progression nor route to salaries well in excess of £100k.

The problems this country faces are not only due to poor government but to the BMA which has consistently failed to deliver trained medics in sufficient numbers.

At least a barista won’t refuse to serve you a coffee when you’re thirsty!

Why should public sector workers, including doctors, be paid less than those in the private sector? It makes no sense at all.
This country can afford to meet the pay claim of our doctors. It’s political choice not to do so. The govt wants to continue running our NHS down because its belief system/ideology is to privatise public services.

Iam64 locum consultants are paid in excess of £200k a year. How much more should the NHS pay them?

ronib, what’s that git to do with junior doctors earning less than dog trainers

Iam64 dog trainers earn less than junior doctors.

We have seen from the ex-NHS director the truth of what junior doctors are paid and it’s far more than the BMA would have us believe. And, as I keep saying, what a fantastic pension contribution. Public sector salaries have never matched those in the private sector, where the market decides the remuneration and the taxpayer isn’t paying for it.

Locums are not in the pension scheme, get no holiday pay or sick pay and they only get work when it is available so not many will earn £200K!

It is the government who decide on numbers in med schools, not the BMA.
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9735/

The taxpayer pays for everything Germanshepherdsmum. How do you think companies make profits? Whether it’s a tax or a payment from our salaries for something, we are still paying.

foxie48 in 2008 the BMA voted against increasing medical school places and against the building of new teaching universities. How is the BMA not accountable for the mess we’re in?