6 Day Doctors Strike

Charlatans?

A colleague of mine has a son going through med school at the moment. It’s not easy, it was awful even for him (& his fellow students) to get their first year F1 placements, it’s in no way an easy ride and many many people genuinely enter the medical profession because they want to help people.

My cousin is a Consultant at a large Children’s Hospital, he’s chosen not to ever undertake private work, his workload is horrendous, the stress levels are high.

My goddaughter is a paediatric oncology nurse.

Don’t call these hardworking NHS professionals “charlatans” most are hardworking, dedicated, empathic professionals!

Judging a person’s professionalism because you felt that looked happy in a very short TV clip (highly edited) doesn’t mean they don’t care or that even want to strike! Most professions do not want to strike, for a start you don’t get paid!

As for our govt banning the right to strike, this sums up our current govt and I hope those who support this are very happy when we left with few rights on the workplace (rewriting EU based employment laws, rewriting the Human Rights Act, attempting to ban peaceful protect) Be careful what you wish for!

Well responded Cossy. The attitudes of some people are shocking. Disagree with strike action if you want to, express good reasons for your position but don’t call an entire profession charlatans

But there are already bans on the right to strike in the Uk for some professions. Can’t quite follow the logic Cossy.

There is none.

I am afraid that Junior Doctors weren't the only ones who have suffered from wage deflation over the years but they are the ones putting lives at risk asking for an eye watering amount. Most of the professionals I have known have had to pay for their own career qualifications, Dr's at least get some of theirs paid for them for a very small return of having to work for the NHS for a couple of years to avoid repaying these fees.
There are hundreds of very suitable young people desperate to become Drs even knowing what the pay is like but the lack of training places mean they are just not able to train. Let's throw some money at that rather than lining the pockets of people who trained to do the job and are now striking whilst people are dying.
If we are going to pay a huge amount to retain these Junior Doctors, maybe we can make them more accountable. My experience is that they are often dismissive or will only see a horse rather than the zebra in front of them.
I'm just off to put my tin hat on!

Ronib

Very few professions, and in all honesty, I can see the logic in the armed forces not being able to strike, but would support prison officers and police if they were doing this as a last resort.

I just don’t think strikes are ever taken lightly by those choosing to take this action, my own daughter, a primary school teacher, recently went on strike, it’s not always just about their salaries, but work and conditions and, in a lot of teachers cases, school funding models.

Let’s just respectfully agree to disagree.

I feel strongly about people being legally allowed to stand up to their employers, as a last resort.

“Yes, don’t agree with GSM with this particular comment. As I said earlier, I DO support this strike, and I do agree that their starting salaries are too low (imo) and surely not every junior doctor can ultimately become a consultant? Is this how it works? Surely there’s far less consultants in each hospital than registrars? I’m not quite sure all hospital doctors will become consultants?”

A lot become consultants or GPs others go into Admin, Research or Teaching roles, mostly within the NHS pay scale, some continue full time, many part time especially women.

By the way, I’m not aware that medical students get their students loans refunded by working for the NHS? My understanding is medical students, like all other students currently, have to take out student loans for both fees and maintenance and then pay that back, with interest, just like any other student?

cossy As for our govt banning the right to strike, this sums up our current govt and I hope those who support this are very happy when we left with few rights on the workplace (rewriting EU based employment laws, rewriting the Human Rights Act, attempting to ban peaceful protect) Be careful what you wish for!

No one is banning the right to strike in the Uk. That is a scaremongering statement. Even in the Sainted EU countries in Europe they are not one homogeneous group. Different EU countries have different rules one who may be allowed to strike - not all the same by any means - and different ‘expected levels of service’ within a given strike action if called.

I expect so, unless their parents are sufficiently well off to pay off their loans as we did for our son’s tuition fees - he wouldn’t have qualified for a loan for maintenance costs. It has cost many thousands to train the doctors and they are under no obligation to remain in the NHS - whyever would the NHS pay off their loans? I know of no public or private sector employer which pays off an employee’s student debt.

A physician Associate is supposed to closely supervised by a doctor . By giving an account an every patient that he /she sees and any decisions made on treatment or ongoing care.In the hospital this is all followed up on closely but not so much in a G P surgery . I read recently about a patient died of a pulmonary embolism because the associate didn’t recognise the signs of a blood clot in the calf and sent the patient home without further advice . This will probably happen again and again because they are not trained doctors.

I’m clearing misunderstanding the OP who spoke about “ Most of the professionals I have known have had to pay for their own career qualifications, Dr's at least get some of theirs paid for them for a very small return of having to work for the NHS for a couple of years to avoid repaying these fees.” I was assuming she meant medical school fees?

Now not really sure what she meant ?

Following on from #GSM and #Freya's posts. Please see the below from the BMJ for information. This is a bit out of date as it's dated Aug 2022. The payscale seems reasonable to me for doctors on foundation level and just starting out.

www.bmj.com/careers/article/the-complete-guide-to-nhs-pay-for-doctors

The doctors may be due a pay rise, but to ask for 35% is just bloody ridiculous.

"Funding is available if you're studying to become a doctor or dentist and you're:

studying a 5 or 6-year undergraduate course (you can apply from year 5)
studying a 3 or 4-year graduate-entry course (you can apply from year 2)"

I know in Wales 4 years ago you had to agree to work in the NHS for a couple of years if you get funding. I don't know whether it is the same in England.

Germanshepherdsmum

I expect so, unless their parents are sufficiently well off to pay off their loans as we did for our son’s tuition fees - he wouldn’t have qualified for a loan for maintenance costs. It has cost many thousands to train the doctors and they are under no obligation to remain in the NHS - whyever would the NHS pay off their loans? I know of no public or private sector employer which pays off an employee’s student debt.

As an incentive.

Incidentally, some teachers in shortage subjects receive huge incentive payments at the beginning of their careers.

Growstuff I don’t know what counts as huge? Around £10k ? Smaller payments depending on subject.
Don’t forget that a mathematics degree can pay out in finance, accountancy, actuary and teaching is the poor relation.

Golden hellos are offered in the private sector of course, where deemed appropriate and worthwhile by the employer, but up to the employee what they spend the money on. It would be a very unusual graduate starting their first job who warranted a large incentive - law, for example, is a hugely oversubscribed profession at entry level. I don’t know about teaching.

icanhandthemback

"Funding is available if you're studying to become a doctor or dentist and you're:

studying a 5 or 6-year undergraduate course (you can apply from year 5)
studying a 3 or 4-year graduate-entry course (you can apply from year 2)"

I know in Wales 4 years ago you had to agree to work in the NHS for a couple of years if you get funding. I don't know whether it is the same in England.

£1,000 p.a. is a non means tested grant available to any student that meets the criteria, payable for the 5th year (or 6th for those who intercalate), for students who are doing a post grad course, it is available for years 2 -4.

There are also means tested bursaries which depend on whether the student is living at home or not, for those who come from lower income households. Max amount just over £3k for the poorest student living away from home in London. Students can also apply to charities for funding.

There always was in teaching 'grow stuff 'it was called the "London Allowance".To get teachers to work in ares others wouldn't or couldn't afford their accommodation.

sazz1

Just looking at the junior doctors on TV happy smiling faces while people will die from delayed appointments and my niece in agony for 14 days on their previous strike. Do will really want these people with no care or compassion caring for us when we are desperately ill? Government could open up immigration to qualified doctors abroad and hopefully get rid of these charlatans.

I don't know one person, of our age or younger, who thinks UK medics are charlatans. What a strange word to use.

It is highly unlikely that a Labour Government could afford the junior doctors pay demands! The real problem with the NHS, as with health services in many other countries, is that they are simply unaffordable! Our NHS was founded in 1948 for a much smaller population and when medicine was far less sophisticated. Even so, in the very first year of its existence it declared that more funding was needed and the government had to duly oblige. And so it has continued to a point where over 44% of all public spending goes to them to the detriment of many other essential services. We must reform the health service, in my opinion. A public private service may be the way as in other countries. If people are happy to spend on luxuries, such as take aways, holidays, new cars etc, surely they would not object to paying some sort of health insurance for their most important possession, their health? For those who cannot afford to pay there should of course be public provision. By the way the excellent pension packages that many NHS staff receive are never mentioned are they?

Amalegra Would public provision be the same as private provision or should those who can't afford to pay for private care expect worse care

The excellent pension packages - far from being never mentioned - are mentioned all the time.
I’m a retired public sector worker. I contributed over and above to my pension, for 40 years. Friends who did my kind of work independently or privately earned twice what I did. I chose to stay in public service because I believe working in safeguarding should be not for profit. I earned less but knew I’d have a decent pension.
I’m the lucky generation, it’s very different for yiung people now, teachers, police etc all pay more into their pensions for less. I sat round tables with barristers earning 7 times my salary, a few of whom grumbled about our pension scheme

Amalegra

It is highly unlikely that a Labour Government could afford the junior doctors pay demands! The real problem with the NHS, as with health services in many other countries, is that they are simply unaffordable! Our NHS was founded in 1948 for a much smaller population and when medicine was far less sophisticated. Even so, in the very first year of its existence it declared that more funding was needed and the government had to duly oblige. And so it has continued to a point where over 44% of all public spending goes to them to the detriment of many other essential services. We must reform the health service, in my opinion. A public private service may be the way as in other countries. If people are happy to spend on luxuries, such as take aways, holidays, new cars etc, surely they would not object to paying some sort of health insurance for their most important possession, their health? For those who cannot afford to pay there should of course be public provision. By the way the excellent pension packages that many NHS staff receive are never mentioned are they?

How do you work out that 44% of all public spending goes to the NHS?

The total public sector expenditure on services in 2022/3 was £1,067.5 billion, of which £211.6 was spent on health.

Source:

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/public-spending-statistics-release-july-2023/public-spending-statistics-july-2023#central-government-own-expenditure