Sunak V Starmer

As a retired teacher I can confirm that disruptive behaviour of children with little or no support, is a major factor in causing an exodus of the teaching profession. That together with difficult and unreasonable parents make teaching a real challenge. One or more challenging pupils can distract other children who want to learn and create an atmosphere of tension as well as waste immeasurable amounts of teaching time. There are always 'behaviour management' strategies in place but without support, they are useless.

Whatever the Party political arguments who did what when

- its time to reduce the SATS and give teachers more control over setting a curriculum to become more child centred dare I say it more fun especially younger pupils, reduce the forced SATS coaching and forcing teacher paperwork.

and above all fund schools more adequately.

polly123

As a retired teacher I can confirm that disruptive behaviour of children with little or no support, is a major factor in causing an exodus of the teaching profession. That together with difficult and unreasonable parents make teaching a real challenge. One or more challenging pupils can distract other children who want to learn and create an atmosphere of tension as well as waste immeasurable amounts of teaching time. There are always 'behaviour management' strategies in place but without support, they are useless.

Will more classroom assistants help with this or supervised spaces in schools where pupils can be sent to?

Mollygo I won’t go in to the length of time I’ve spent teaching e.g. putting it in practice … but it’s a long time.

I didn't bother to watch as my mind is made up that we need a change, not more of the same. Just undecided who to vote for, Labour or LibDems? Rishi cannot say anything to convince me about the deterioration of the country over the past 14 years. He was part of the San e government. Blaming the pandemic won't help either. We had 10 years of austerity. Where is the money? Lots were wasted on HS2, money to help businesses not paid back and failed PPE equipment.

The way Starmer is behaving l wouldn’t trust him with my shopping list let alone the Country.
Giving votes to 16 year olds ?
My granddaughter is 16 and she can’t decided what she wants to eat let alone vote.
He needs to get his Act together and start by getting rid of
Angela Rayner, how can you expect her to represent the Country with dreadful language she uses,
I have always voted Labour unfortunately I’m having secon thoughs.

I thought Sunak talked over others less than in previous interviews but was so fed up of hearing about the £2000. Likewise Starmer couldn't stop mentioning his CPs service.
Not an enlightening debate especially after listening to the various fact checkers on different news progs afterwards. Sunak looked confident ( why?) and Starmer looked caught in the headlights so imo a slender victory for Sunak.

Mollygo

LizzieDrip

Add into that, disruptive behaviour which makes T&L even more difficult

MollyGo I’m not denying that but, arguably, there’s a link between the ‘disruptive behaviour’ and children’s needs not being met! I’m sure you know the concept of hierarchy of needs, and the emotional context of learning.

Yes I’m aware of all that. It’s easy to say and easy to tell others to put into practice.
How would you assess the needs of each child, then meet all the differing needs of a class of 30 children? Or, if you aren’t a teacher, do you think you’d do it.
And how would you construct a curriculum with continuity, and progression in the development of skills and learning for each child’s hierarchy of needs?

It isn't necessary to construct a curriculum simply to adapt the present curriculum to the needs of children. So the idea that by a certain age children will have certain abilities is dropped and the concept that learning needs to be appropriate to the child's progress is adopted. Some children will spend much longer on basic skills, but if these are properly established then the child will be less likely to abandon learning in favour of disruptive behaviour.
Smaller classes, more teachers and more support staff would be necessary to enable this.

Looking back 40+ years, I was in a class of 40 with a single teacher, bad behavior in class was unknown, there was some bullying in break times but prefects and staff kept that under control. We all respected the teachers, today many pupils and parents don’t respect teachers or any other authority.

Me too Dingleberry

It’s hardly a debate. No debating rules followed

Thank you Glorianny👏👏👏

It isn't necessary to construct a curriculum simply to adapt the present curriculum to the needs of children.

Absolutely Glorianny. That is as true now as it was when you stopped teaching all those years ago.

^Smaller classes and more teachers? We’re back to the potential for schools to provide more classroom spaces. Many schools can’t, but those, like mine who could will really appreciate the promised funding to enable that to happen. Do you think we’ll get it from any government?

More qualified support staff? In principle I agree but up to how many extra adults would you say it is reasonable to have in a classroom, before they become a distraction in themselves?
Children’s needs, even outside SEND can be so different, but in a class where, e.g. I think you mentioned a large percentage had special needs, how many extra staff would you have wanted?

"Anyone watching?" - said the title. Well, despite the evidence of previous shows in other elections, maybe some folk did?!

We saw a few seconds, while changing channels (hadn't realised it was on!).

One of the media newsletter emails I get had this joke (sums it up so well):- An election debate which subtracted from the net total of human knowledge.

To say it was aimed at the lowest common denominator is an insult to fractions {courtesy of the 'i'}.

PS:- I note in passing that the BBC, in a fit of excitement about the election that apparently 99+% of the population don't share, have moved the gruesome Question Time from its usual slot after the 10pm News to 'prime time' AHEAD of that news.

In MY country, the head of the BBC would not just be removed from that position, they'd be doing so by walking the plank in shark-infested waters [you could do it with a phone vote, to help them make a few quid . . . "phone to give him a longer plank . . .or this number for shorter"]

I did not watch it as you rarely get points answered , just tit for tat answers and blaming each other. I would rather go to a live meeting , where I have the chance to get some answers , as I will persist until I do. Anyway Sunak ,even if he wasnt already likely to lose, has already shot himself in the foot and shown what he and his advisers think is important. As Prime Minister, to have left the D Day meeting, just for his own political reasons, was a disgrace. If he was so crass and insensitive as to think that the overall occasion, in which heads of state etc were all at least attempting to talk after the ceremonies, to hopefully encourage any improvement in peace between people; you would have thought that his so called advisors might have had a little bit of thought as to how this would look to everyone. Well , it certainly shows who the conservatives put first. A clear case of ME, MYSELF and I. Whatever excuses or reasons are given, actions speak louder than words!! Unfortunately he not only showed his own lack of respect, but he was there as our PM , and supposedly representing all of Britain. Luckily we had the King, ~Starmer, and those soldiers who made such a great effort to be there to represent themselves and their comrades., and many others who showed the respect deserved on the occasion

Mollygo

^It isn't necessary to construct a curriculum simply to adapt the present curriculum to the needs of children.^

Absolutely Glorianny. That is as true now as it was when you stopped teaching all those years ago.

^Smaller classes and more teachers? We’re back to the potential for schools to provide more classroom spaces. Many schools can’t, but those, like mine who could will really appreciate the promised funding to enable that to happen. Do you think we’ll get it from any government?

More qualified support staff? In principle I agree but up to how many extra adults would you say it is reasonable to have in a classroom, before they become a distraction in themselves?
Children’s needs, even outside SEND can be so different, but in a class where, e.g. I think you mentioned a large percentage had special needs, how many extra staff would you have wanted?

Smaller classes could simply be smaller groups working with a teacher. For classroom based things like registration the numbers would be bigger. I've worked in classrooms with other people, classroom assistants and teachers. It works well if processes are agreed beforehand and respect for others is established. I've also worked with groups in corners and corridors.
The class I was working with needed a huge amount of input. All of them had virtually missed out on reception work, having had a teacher who had been off sick a long time and a series of supply teachers. Perhaps that would be a good idea as well. A team who worked with classes with problems and nurtured them.
It won't happen of course.

Why won’t it happen? Do you think the money won’t be forthcoming?
How many additional adults do you think is reasonable in a classroom?
Processes agreed and respect? Certainly with the staff involved, but children don’t always understand those terms and now even less than the 20 years ago when you were in the classroom.
Teaching in corridors -groups possibly. But none of our corridors would be wide enough and besides, they provide toilet access, so involve disturbance. Our SEND children are often those who find focusing difficult. Do you really think that’s the best way to provide for them.
As a short term solution caused by building problems, I taught Reception/Y1 for over a term in the school hall, meaning we had to move for PE and setting up the hall for lunch time.
It can be done, but I wouldn’t recommend it, would you?
Do you think the money will be forthcoming for the new buildings to accommodate all the extra teachers promised?

Mollygo

Why won’t it happen? Do you think the money won’t be forthcoming?
How many additional adults do you think is reasonable in a classroom?
Processes agreed and respect? Certainly with the staff involved, but children don’t always understand those terms and now even less than the 20 years ago when you were in the classroom.
Teaching in corridors -groups possibly. But none of our corridors would be wide enough and besides, they provide toilet access, so involve disturbance. Our SEND children are often those who find focusing difficult. Do you really think that’s the best way to provide for them.
As a short term solution caused by building problems, I taught Reception/Y1 for over a term in the school hall, meaning we had to move for PE and setting up the hall for lunch time.
It can be done, but I wouldn’t recommend it, would you?
Do you think the money will be forthcoming for the new buildings to accommodate all the extra teachers promised?

Why do you feel the need to interrogate me Mollygo with such a barrage of questions?
Children don't need to understand processes, just that they are being applied and adhered to. It's mixed messages that confuse children.

Why do you feel I must supply solutions for your school?

I didn't say it was the best solution just that I had done it.
I don't think there will be enough money. There wasn't last time. So we got PFI.

Wyllow3

polly123

As a retired teacher I can confirm that disruptive behaviour of children with little or no support, is a major factor in causing an exodus of the teaching profession. That together with difficult and unreasonable parents make teaching a real challenge. One or more challenging pupils can distract other children who want to learn and create an atmosphere of tension as well as waste immeasurable amounts of teaching time. There are always 'behaviour management' strategies in place but without support, they are useless.

Will more classroom assistants help with this or supervised spaces in schools where pupils can be sent to?

I had great teaching assistants but they were very busy with targeted group work and helping other children to learn or catch up. The issue seemed to be that there seemed to be few consequences for disruptive children when the situation became very difficult. It was not helped by teachers who wanted to be their friend and allowed poor behaviour with warnings that were never followed up. The inconsistency of expectation of good behaviour varied enormously.

Sorry you feel barraged Glorianny. If you read things do you never question them?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

polly123

Wyllow3

polly123

As a retired teacher I can confirm that disruptive behaviour of children with little or no support, is a major factor in causing an exodus of the teaching profession. That together with difficult and unreasonable parents make teaching a real challenge. One or more challenging pupils can distract other children who want to learn and create an atmosphere of tension as well as waste immeasurable amounts of teaching time. There are always 'behaviour management' strategies in place but without support, they are useless.

Will more classroom assistants help with this or supervised spaces in schools where pupils can be sent to?

I had great teaching assistants but they were very busy with targeted group work and helping other children to learn or catch up. The issue seemed to be that there seemed to be few consequences for disruptive children when the situation became very difficult. It was not helped by teachers who wanted to be their friend and allowed poor behaviour with warnings that were never followed up. The inconsistency of expectation of good behaviour varied enormously.

That's a school and management problem.
I've seen and worked in schools where disruptive children were consistently dealt with. It does take experienced teachers and a clear policy which is always applied. I learned an awful lot from some very effective teachers. All will now be retired.

Many of the problems faced by teachers now are different from those in the past. Apart from all the labels that have accumulated, parental support has changed in a lot (not all) cases. Consistent treatment is effective, eventually, but anyone working in today’s classrooms, whether primary or secondary will appreciate the difference between now and even when I started teaching.

Mollygo

Many of the problems faced by teachers now are different from those in the past. Apart from all the labels that have accumulated, parental support has changed in a lot (not all) cases. Consistent treatment is effective, eventually, but anyone working in today’s classrooms, whether primary or secondary will appreciate the difference between now and even when I started teaching.

The problems of deprivation, parental neglect, inadequate or inconsistent discipline, family breakdown and poverty have always been there. They have probably expanded into schools that never had to cope with such things in the past, but they were always there.
One thing I noticed was that schools that consistently dealt with such children had in many cases (not all) real processes that worked and staff used to dealing with the issues. They dealt with them effectively. Schools not used to such things struggled to deal with the occasional disruptive child.
Parental support has always been variable and some have always been abusive.

And the plethora of labels?