Sunak V Starmer

Iam64

Gloryannie and LizzieDrip speak from long experience and address the issues of why it’s so hard to retain teachers. One of my daughters taught primary for 8 years before leaving because it was impossible to balance family life with the king hours, weekend working every teacher faces.
It’s also a imo significant that we’ve had austerity and a government with no respect or regard for public service

It’s the same in the Health Service you are asked to do more and more with less each year, I gave up as a midwife 5 yrs ago, the job was not about patient care it was a solid 12 hours of box ticking.

You followed the script and ticked the boxes, it was a world away from when I started.

Thanks Katie590upgrading 18 million homes to EPC C is established to be £7529 per home

Katie590

www.gov.uk/government/publications/opposition-policy-costings-2024

Here is the Treasury costings as published the big single item is the Warm Homes plan plus lots of other smaller increases in spending, and the extra taxation they expect to get from non doms and private schools.

It just cannot be done on £500 a year unless a lot more is borrowed.

😀😀 the £500 a year is a rubbish figure.

Use the same method and we discover that the Tories planned spending is going to cost £3000 over the same period. But that figure is as daft as the other one.

Why waste so much time discussing fantasy figures?

I note Sunak was so intent on trying to save his lying skin that he left the D Day commemorations. That is utterly unforgivable.

Fascinating documents, Katie590, thanks for thevlink.

But of course they come with a health warning.

They are not based on a manifesto, but on various announcements by shadow ministers on items which may, or may not, make it into the manifesto.

'Some information supplied by Special Advisers'. is noted in some of the documents. Spads will, of course, be non civil service government appointees, not connected to the opposition in any way.

Costings don't give any information on the effects of the vosted proposals on the economy, such as the multiplier effect (the amount of economic activity produced by each £1 of spending), efficiency savings or returns to the treasury by way of taxation.

I wouldn't be taking them as set in stone.

Whitewave, I agree entirely they are fantasy figures, so why are the media highlighting them, why are we discussing them.

Sunak and Starmer are polititians they will lie, cheat and bribe to get votes, nothing new in that.

“Costings don't give any information on the effects of the vosted proposals on the economy, such as the multiplier effect (the amount of economic activity produced by each £1 of spending), efficiency savings or returns to the treasury by way of taxation.”

With the non dom and private schools proposals there were calculations of the negative effects of the changes, whether they are realistic is anyone’s guess.
The Warm Homes scheme would be increased economic activity but the estimate did have doubts whether it would be achievable. Where are they going to find the extra workers for what is a very labour intensive programme, in addition to the existing building commitments.

Katie590

Whitewave, I agree entirely they are fantasy figures, so why are the media highlighting them, why are we discussing them.

Sunak and Starmer are polititians they will lie, cheat and bribe to get votes, nothing new in that.

why are we discussing them?

I think we're discussing them because you started looking at detail and posted the link to the government produced documents. Isn't discussion what you invited by doing that?

MaizieD

Katie590

Whitewave, I agree entirely they are fantasy figures, so why are the media highlighting them, why are we discussing them.

Sunak and Starmer are polititians they will lie, cheat and bribe to get votes, nothing new in that.

why are we discussing them?

I think we're discussing them because you started looking at detail and posted the link to the government produced documents. Isn't discussion what you invited by doing that?

Sure, but nobody else had bothered to dig out the spending plans to see what was proposed, everyone else just believed the media spin.

No - I believed the permanent secretary and the ORS.

Regarding retention of teachers, I agree with posters on here who have family experience of the profession. Teaching is a difficult job, and has been made almost intolerable by consecutive Conservative governments. Michael Gove alone set classroom practice back 50 years!

Few teachers cite ‘classroom discipline’ as a reason for leaving the profession. They become teachers because they want to make a difference for children, and they understand the challenges that many children face. If teachers were allowed to teach to the needs of the pupils rather the requirements of a politically enforced curriculum I believe things could change.

Currently, teachers are bound by inappropriate testing, target setting and league tables - pitting school against school. All this leads to too much teaching and not enough learning which, in turn, leads to disaffected young people. I could go on & on but I’m sure you’d rather I didn’t!

I will never ‘write off’ swathes of children by likening them to animals when, in reality, it’s the system from the top that is failing them. We are the adults!

rather than missed out than! One day I’ll write a post with no omissions

LizzieDrip

Regarding retention of teachers, I agree with posters on here who have family experience of the profession. Teaching is a difficult job, and has been made almost intolerable by consecutive Conservative governments. Michael Gove alone set classroom practice back 50 years!

Few teachers cite ‘classroom discipline’ as a reason for leaving the profession. They become teachers because they want to make a difference for children, and they understand the challenges that many children face. If teachers were allowed to teach to the needs of the pupils rather the requirements of a politically enforced curriculum I believe things could change.

Currently, teachers are bound by inappropriate testing, target setting and league tables - pitting school against school. All this leads to too much teaching and not enough learning which, in turn, leads to disaffected young people. I could go on & on but I’m sure you’d rather I didn’t!

I will never ‘write off’ swathes of children by likening them to animals when, in reality, it’s the system from the top that is failing them. We are the adults!

I agree so much.

If teachers were allowed to teach to the needs of the pupils rather the requirements of a politically enforced curriculum I believe things could change

Currently, teachers are bound by inappropriate testing, target setting and league tables - pitting school against school.

All this leads to too much teaching and not enough learning which, in turn, leads to disaffected young people. I could go on & on but I’m sure you’d rather I didn’t!"

Currently, teachers are bound by inappropriate testing, target setting and league tables - pitting school against school.

You can hardly blame Gove for that. It goes way back to the Thatcher era.

MaizieD

^Currently, teachers are bound by inappropriate testing, target setting and league tables - pitting school against school.^

You can hardly blame Gove for that. It goes way back to the Thatcher era.

Didn't much of that start to go horribly wrong when David Blunkett kept setting unrealistic, unachievable targets in SATS ? Pupils were put under enormous pressure to succeed, schools only cared about the levels they scored in the tests in order to improve their league table positions. That was when I believe teaching became distorted, like teaching monkeys to do tricks, (to use --a not deliberately unkind animal analogy--).
I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, thankfully we didn't have to bother with SATS in the independent (phew!), but this wasn't this around 2000 onwards under a Labour government? I think the minister in charge was Stephen Clarke? Authors like Michael Rosen refused to support the English papers. I remember speaking with Devon author Michael Murpugo who refused to have passages from his books in the papers because English standards in the selected passages were slipping so badly in order to massage the 85% pass rate results.

Teaching has been made more difficult in the early years by more children arriving without sufficient language and social skills. Frequently this is accompanied by poor behaviour and lack of parental support for strategies you use to try and improve behaviour.

Disruptive behaviour continues up the school and creates a barrier to their own and to other children’s learning. By the time they get to KS3 disruptive behaviour is ingrained in some children and it’s not always the children with EBD who cause the problems.

Additional TA support, whilst essential, adds another layer of responsibility to the teacher’s workload. Planning for the TA, especially those new to the job, ensuring they know what the child is expected to achieve and that the TA can provide feedback on what the child has managed/ been doing all takes extra time. How will that be provided?

The National curriculum-which was a nightmare initially, was to ensure progress of skills as well as learning and in some schools that was not happening.

I’ve read posters on here saying tables or spelling weren’t considered important at my child’s school, so while I really dislike league tables, was there possibly a need for testing to ensure all children were being offered the same opportunities?

I agree that knowing about a clerihew is not vital or that all the technical phrases e.g. to describe sentence starters are overwhelming, a lot of the grammar needs introducing. Funny that nobody complains about learning all the names for tenses when they learn French.

Phrases like
teach to the needs of the pupils rather the requirements of a politically enforced curriculum make me laugh.
Providing differentiated activities for 30 children in a mixed class, with increasing numbers of different needs is difficult enough. Add into that, disruptive behaviour which makes T&L even more difficult.
Then that above phrase implies you want teachers to add the need to invent their own curriculum which provides continuity and progression for each child’s needs in developing skills and knowledge. This would also involve the whole school teaching staff to ensure that subject matter is not repeated in class after class, outwith English and Maths where some repetition is vital.

I’ll be interested to see what the next government decides to do.

Yes MaizieD the rot started with Thatcher. When Gove was Minister for Education he completely reformed the education system, building on Thatcher’s work. He entrenched the testing regime - but ‘weighing the pig’ never makes it fatter!

Among many, many changes he re-introduced terminal exams at GCSE. This type of assessment focuses on memorising facts rather than actually understanding them. Yes, it’s probably how we were examined, but the understanding of learning and assessment has moved on since then.

Gove rejected the voices of many educationalists protesting against such rigid, narrow assessment. One size does not fit all - particularly neurodivergent youngsters.

I would argue that this, in part, has led to the disengagement of many teenagers and therefore to the some of the behaviour experienced in classrooms today. It has also led to those with SEN not having their needs adequately met. Not to mention the stress for teachers who are constantly trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

No, oseann, it was Thatcher's government that put the initial pressure on. They introduced SATs and League tables and a massive National Curriculum. My DD took Y9 SATs in 1994 (thankfully now abolished), and the pressure was well on then...

Blunkett had no understanding of Education. I think he was trying to copy the apparently successful imposition of targets in the NHS. Which of course didn't work the same way.

Yes Joseann the introduction of SATs for Primary children caused un-told harm to many children … in state schools!

No - watched sewing Bee - can’t bare the lies, personal attacks! Sunak said he had ‘honesty? Integrity & I can’t remember the third’ all lies

Add into that, disruptive behaviour which makes T&L even more difficult

MollyGo I’m not denying that but, arguably, there’s a link between the ‘disruptive behaviour’ and children’s needs not being met! I’m sure you know the concept of hierarchy of needs, and the emotional context of learning.

Sunak proved yesterday that he puts party before country - shame on him.

LizzieDrip

Yes Joseann the introduction of SATs for Primary children caused un-told harm to many children … in state schools!

I'm surprised that SATS weren't slung out of the window by the government at this time, as in Wales, when the damage was evident. Yes, the Conservatives messed up by introducing them, but Labour should have been brave enough to ditch them instead of constantly increasing the pass rate targets. (That's the beauty of an independent school where teachers can pick and chose only the best bits.) Wasn't there a Labour MP, Estelle Morris, who resigned because the SATS were flawed?
Time for a big rethink, .. if anyone dares.

I’ve no confidence in either of them to be honest. I think they’re both liars and hypocrites. Yuck 🤮

Starmer didn't answer one question. He just replied by criticising the govt. we leant absolutely nothing about what his policies will be or where the money will come from. I am genuinely fearful that the country is doomed with him and the awful Angela in charge.

Be careful what you wish for Labour voters.

LizzieDrip

^Add into that, disruptive behaviour which makes T&L even more difficult^

MollyGo I’m not denying that but, arguably, there’s a link between the ‘disruptive behaviour’ and children’s needs not being met! I’m sure you know the concept of hierarchy of needs, and the emotional context of learning.

Yes I’m aware of all that. It’s easy to say and easy to tell others to put into practice.
How would you assess the needs of each child, then meet all the differing needs of a class of 30 children? Or, if you aren’t a teacher, do you think you’d do it.
And how would you construct a curriculum with continuity, and progression in the development of skills and learning for each child’s hierarchy of needs?