Better weather = many more immigrants 822 yesterday

zakouma66

I can tell you from first hand experience, that the repressed woman trope just isn't true at all.

Tell that to Jyoti Singh who was gang-raped by a Delhi bus-driver and five others after she boarded the bus with a male companion, having been with him in the cinema to watch "Life of Pi".

You can't of course, because she died of internal injuries as the result of an act so horrific, I can't even write it on here.

And, yes - gang rapes occur all over the world, even here.

But, in India, violence against women persists - in spite of the horrific nature of this crime which shocked the world, and purportedly changed the law, gender-based violence against women has not changed.

The rapists attempted to justify their 'punishment' of Jyoti - she was a young woman, out late at night, in public with a male companion.

If that isn't repression, I don't know what is.

Of course, there were also men on the demonstrations protesting the violence against Jyoti, and women in general- no-one is suggesting that all Indian men are savage rapists. But little has changed to alter the culture of the subjugation of women, that is the material point. It persists.

Oh that terrible case Dickens out of many terrible cases in India that one really upset me and stayed with me.

I really have no idea from where you get this ‘first hand experience zakouma. Perhaps you could enlighten us as it is contrary to so much of which we read.

The dreadful Muslim grooming gangs all over the country demonstrates what these men think of women but they single out white British teenagers.
While they were drugging, raping, abusing and imprisoning them they told them they were white trash.

Exactly.

Primrose53

The dreadful Muslim grooming gangs all over the country demonstrates what these men think of women but they single out white British teenagers.
While they were drugging, raping, abusing and imprisoning them they told them they were white trash.

The problem, of course, is that those of us who like to think of ourselves as 'enlightened' are nervous about entering into these kinds of discussions if we want to delve deeper into cultural issues for fear of being deemed bigots or racists if we don't stick to the accepted narrative.

For example (sticking head above parapet) - I don't accept the premise that Muslim men are all would-be suppressors of women - on the other hand, neither do I believe they're all just decent men who simply want to live a peaceful life following the tenets of their religion. It's just not that cut and dried. But - you can't say that. The polarisation is that either they're here to take over and convert us all to Islam eventually, or they're all our doctors and nurses, business-men, just like everyone else. And I don't believe either is true.

What I do believe is that education and economic status has a defining effect on how Muslim men think, feel and behave - as it does for other cultures. Men from rural and more isolated parts of Pakistan, India, Indonesia, etc, are more likely to be conservative in their outlook - whether they be Muslim or not, compared to those in the cities and capitols. And the same holds true to some extent in the UK. My relatives living in hamlets and small enclaves in Lincolnshire hold very different views to me - on just about everything. They've stayed put, and I've moved around - we are poles apart.

So those grooming gangs as they are called, did exist - and yes, we know that white grooming gangs exist too, but you can't get away from the fact that those gangs we are talking about often come from a culture where women are second class citizens, and therefore in a country with liberal values, white women - girls in this instance - will be regarded as fair-game.

As a teenager, I had a Turkish boyfriend. He was a staunch admirer of Kemal Atatürk who secularised and westernised the country. He (boyfriend) was progressive and liberal-minded - but his parents, and aunts and uncles were a completely different matter, and I know (though couldn't formulate the words or ideas at the time) that they regarded me, with my 'western ways' in a similar light to that of the grooming gangs towards white women (girls).

Anyway, I ramble. I'm neither a racist nor a bigot (though quite likely to be accused of both) but neither am I naive - and I know that living among immigrants in Hampstead Heath (which I did for a while) is a totally different experience to that of living in, say, Tower Hamlets or Hackney.

Two excellent posts Dickens.

Thank you.

Conversely, my OH had a work colleague - Catholic, married man with three lovely daughters of whom he was fiercely protective.

But he loved his frequent business trips to Indonesia where he, allegedly, paid many trips to the local brothels (regulated under local government apparently) where some very young girls worked - probably the same age as his eldest daughter. He used to boast about it to my OH.

I didn't think about it then, but I wonder now if, culturally speaking, they were fair game?

Of course, the common denominator in all this - is men. The 'type' of men who seem to need to subscribe to cultures that relegate women to an inferior role which - if they don't embrace it - is often forced on them through intimidation and violence.

Just thinking out loud here maddyone.

My OH who is Swedish by birth and from a liberal upbringing just thought he was a philandering opportunist. But he had met this man's wife and daughters and was irked by his behaviour.

Oreo

growstuff

Just checked. Seven men were executed in Iran for supporting women protesting against the morality police.

Seven. That means there were seven brave men.That’s all it means unfortunately.

There were more than seven men who were arrested. What it means is that those poor men were the ones picked on to die.

What would your reaction have been if those men had somehow managed to escape Iran and found their way to the UK?

I struggle with that Growstuff - bravery doesn’t mean leaving your family to face untold terror in the Talibans hands in my book.

It seems to me that it’s always young men who cross the Channel and the women are left behind with the children.

Imagine during WW1/2 all our young men swanned off to America leaving their families…

But it's not always young men, women and children also make the crossing. It's true to though that to travel so far with children is very difficult. If there was a way for migrants to claim asylum without having to be actually on British soil would you feel more sympathetic?

The vast majority are young men.

I have explained why.

There are some strange things floating about in this wide ranging discussion.
Of course repression and cruelty is never right.
The case of Jyoti Singh would upset any right minded person. For the record I am not in favour of abuse and murder.

On the other hand the following is not helpful or accurate.

If their women are not repressed how come they cannot sit in the same rooms in their mosques? How come they have to trot along behind their husbands when they’re out

I could share some experiences and thoughts but to be honest, its an utter waste ot time and energy.

Wishing all posters a pleasant day.

Dickens These individuals are involved in forgery, they are vicious, violent thugs - not averse to intimidation and threats of (and actual) assault
they are cold-blooded, ruthless, opportunists who don't give a fig for the consequences of their trade in human traffic, neither their 'customers' nor their host countries.
IMO they are no different to drugs barons, the Mafia - they are profiting from people's misfortune / poverty / call it what you will - they are evil, criminal thugs.

Never fear Keir is Here! He says that Labour is going to smash these vicious gangs, so once he is Prime Minister the gangs will tremble in fear. 🙄

I honestly can't understand why anyone who voted for Brexit or anyone who is upset/concerned about immigration both legal and illegal would vote Labour, Starmer wanted to overturn the EU referendum it will be in my opinion 1,000 times worse until Labour. The Tories have let us down massively as well, that's why I'm voting for The Reform Party and Nigel Farage in my opinion he's our last hope.

Pantglas2

I struggle with that Growstuff - bravery doesn’t mean leaving your family to face untold terror in the Talibans hands in my book.

It seems to me that it’s always young men who cross the Channel and the women are left behind with the children.

Imagine during WW1/2 all our young men swanned off to America leaving their families…

So bravery means staying to be executed? I wonder if their families really appreciated that.

Nicenanny3

I honestly can't understand why anyone who voted for Brexit or anyone who is upset/concerned about immigration both legal and illegal would vote Labour, Starmer wanted to overturn the EU referendum it will be in my opinion 1,000 times worse until Labour. The Tories have let us down massively as well, that's why I'm voting for The Reform Party and Nigel Farage in my opinion he's our last hope.

And I can't understand why people think like you. Good job we live in a democracy and have a right to different views.

Pantglas2

I struggle with that Growstuff - bravery doesn’t mean leaving your family to face untold terror in the Talibans hands in my book.

It seems to me that it’s always young men who cross the Channel and the women are left behind with the children.

Imagine during WW1/2 all our young men swanned off to America leaving their families…

The Taliban doesn't control Iran.

Keir Starmer thinks he can set up processing centres in France. He’s actually been surprisingly quiet about this during the election process, but it was frequently said by the opposition before the election was announced, so I’m assuming that this is what they would like to do. Firstly they would have to get France to agree, but even if they did, all that would happen is that all the migrants would be processed and then arrive in the UK legally. How many does anyone think would be refused under a Labour government? We’re more generous already than many other European countries in granting asylum to a variety of people who arrive here. Look at that Afghanistan person who we granted asylum to because he claimed to have become a Christian. He went on to throw acid over a woman and her children. That went well didn’t it? The poor woman has now got life changing injuries.

Of course not Growstuff. It means staying and defending against the odds. There’s a reason that deserting is a court martial offence.

And my last sentence in my previous post stands. You surely don’t think that would’ve been the right thing to do?

The Taliban doesn’t control Iran

No they don’t. Iran has a government that executes people who stand up for human rights, and women’s rights. It employs the ‘morality police’ who beat women to death for showing a strand of hair, and out in the sticks (very different from the cities in Iran) women are stoned to death by men. That’s what the government of Iran oversee.
Not a million miles from the behaviour of the Taliban really.

maddyone

^The Taliban doesn’t control Iran^

No they don’t. Iran has a government that executes people who stand up for human rights, and women’s rights. It employs the ‘morality police’ who beat women to death for showing a strand of hair, and out in the sticks (very different from the cities in Iran) women are stoned to death by men. That’s what the government of Iran oversee.
Not a million miles from the behaviour of the Taliban really.

Yes, they do ... and execute young men who stand up for women. Maybe those men have a reason to seek asylum elsewhere.

Pantglas2

Of course not Growstuff. It means staying and defending against the odds. There’s a reason that deserting is a court martial offence.

And my last sentence in my previous post stands. You surely don’t think that would’ve been the right thing to do?

Yes, I do think that if I'd been a young man threatened with execution, I'd have taken a chance to try and escape and seek asylum elsewhere.

maddyone All "processed" asylum seekers wouldn't arrive in the UK legally. Some would have their claims rejected.