Boxer forces female competitor to quit at the Olympic games [Title edited by GNHQ at poster's request]

Beverley 👍🏻

Excellent post Beverley.

Basically, she is condemned to never compete in any physical sport because of this. She could not compete against males, could she?

Why not? This person is biologically male.

Thank you BeverleyJB

I find this thread very depressing.
As Galaxy and others have said the two women who this "trans" controversy is about are not transgender. They have both been brought up and have competed as women for many years.
They have won and lost to women.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cye0ex43k63o

There are no trans women at this year’s Olympics. There are two nonbinary athletes competing in their assigned sex at birth category, but no trans women.
(MSNBC)

BeverleyJB

I've tried to explain my understanding (as a lay person) from the research I've done in the hope that it's helpful. But of course you are all free to research for yourselves…..

The tests undertaken by the IBA on Khelif were not “gender tests” (whatever those may be) or hormonal tests, but genetic ones. Those tests determined that Khelif had XY chromosomes and, as a consequence, the IBA - which does not agree that men should be in a boxing ring with women, and has reaffirmed today 01/08/2024, that it will continue to protect women boxers - determined the he, as a male, should not take part in women's boxing.

Khelif has XY chromosomes, so is biologically male (whatever it may say on his passport, whatever clothes he was given to wear when a child, or whatever pronouns he chooses.) Human sex is immutable.

Algérie Football Média account (which supports Khelif) on X has stated that he has a genetic condition “like” Semenya, who is 46 XY with 5alpha reductase deficiency (5ARD). I have no way of testing if what AFM has said is true, but given its support of Khelif (and criticism of those who don't support him) it is more likely than not that what they have said is correct.

46 XY 5ARD is a genetic condition that only males have. (Confirmed in the article in the link posted above). Importantly, it does NOT affect the body's sensitivity to testosterone. In simple terms, males with 5ARD go through male puberty and, consequently, have the same physical and physiological advantages over females as a result of that as other males.

If Khelif has 5ARD then he is male and his testosterone levels are not ‘abnormally high’ I as incorrectly reported, including by the BBC, (which is routinely pro anything ‘trans’ related and anti-women) because he has normal levels of testosterone for a man.

Having seen the look on Khelif's face after the fight, in my view he knew exactly what he had done. There are numerous photos of him on the internet wearing typically male clothing and even one in a boxing gym standing next to a young female boxer, who is wearing a hijab. So I don't even believe that Khelif “lives as” a woman at all. He's a man and no sportsman, simply a cheat of the worst kind.

We should remember the important reasons why women's sports were segregated in the first place. The IOC should hang its head in shame - it should not be allowing women's sport to be destroyed in this way.

Women are not punching bags for mediocre men, nor are we here to provide validation or emotional support for inadequate or narcissistic men.

You need to site your sources for these claims . These days responsible and fair reporting is dubious as it can be sourced from fake or dubious news sources .

Beverley your summary of the situation is excellent. To satisfy doubters please cite your source or sources for this. Obviously, GN is not an academic site so it shouldn't be necessary but here we are!

Perhaps Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting should fight each other
They are both ‘women’ so no problems !!!

BlueBelle

Perhaps Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting should fight each other
They are both ‘women’ so no problems !!!

They're different weights, I think.

Perfect solution BlueBelle

I see that the boxing federation (whatever it's called) is awarding prize money to the Italian girl and pledging to support female boxers.

GrannyGravy13

This is the moment the male boxer wins the bout due to the Italian female boxer refusing to carry on.

Absolutely wrong! Saw it on TV, it should never have been allowed in the first place. It is clear he is a man, looks nothing like a woman! Same thing happened the next day, the women actually went the whole match, but of course the man won, again you can see he is a man not a woman, clear as day, why do they allow it.

Have you seen the cartoons going around on this, hilarious and needs to be seen by those on the committees that say it's perfectly ok for a man to box in a women's boxing competition because he says he is a woman!

This photo is trending.

NotSpaghetti

I find this thread very depressing.
As Galaxy and others have said the two women who this "trans" controversy is about are not transgender. They have both been brought up and have competed as women for many years.
They have won and lost to women.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cye0ex43k63o

There are no trans women at this year’s Olympics. There are two nonbinary athletes competing in their assigned sex at birth category, but no trans women.
(MSNBC)

I posted earlier in the thread how some male babies can be wrongly assigned as female at birth. Their birth certificates will state 'girl'. They would be then be brought up as girls and believe they are.
When they reach puberty they go through male puberty, produce testosterone which makes their bodies grow bigger and stronger than females

Now DNA tests can prove that these people are in fact male with all the unfair advantages that will bring if they are competing in sport.

Thank you BeverleyJB

I did hear on TV that Khelif has XY chromosomes, so is biologically male, so why was this allowed to go ahead??

I understand fully that these two male boxers were assigned female at birth due to ambiguous genitalia, but today medics/scientists are able to show conclusively which sex a child/person is, so hopefully this confusion shouldn’t happen in the future. However, despite the incorrect sex being assigned at birth, these two athletes have been shown conclusively to be male, and therefore I am astounded that they are being allowed to compete as women, when they scientifically have been shown to be men. If nothing else, this episode has shown clearly that men competing as women is extremely dangerous. I will be disgusted if either of them win a medal, because it will have been won disingenuously and is therefore cheating.

vegansrock

Genetic XY males may have been identified as female at birth, but their external male organs did not develop, or they may have developed internally. These individuals used to be called “intersex”, know known as DSD ( difference in sex development), there are several different conditions in this category. These are genetic conditions. I’ve no idea whether these boxers come into this category, it was the case with the South African runner a few years back. Although one feels sorry for anyone born with ambiguous sex, it should be the case that any individual with XY chromosomes, so genetically male, cannot compete in XX female sports.

Quite right!

QuoteUrmstongran Thu 01-Aug-24 15:54:11
I wished the audience had booed Khelif. Time people started voicing their disgust.

All members of the Olympic Committee should be sacked!

Callistomon it doesn’t matter if they’re different weights there’s obviously no rules in these Olympics so men can fight women so different weights can also fight ….simples

There is a brilliant book "Middlesex" by Jeffrey Eugenides whose central character is born of indeterminate sex. The book gives a real insight into the difficulties living with the ambiguity of that state and not wholly being able to identify with the sex assigned at birth.

I appreciate in rare instances sex assigned at birth is not always definitive, but with contact sports physiology is quite crucial. If the female opponent continued it's feasible she could be killed, or at the very least badly injured, which somehow poses the question, should such matches be sanctioned.

BlueBelle

Callistomon it doesn’t matter if they’re different weights there’s obviously no rules in these Olympics so men can fight women so different weights can also fight ….simples

😃

A vignette

When Italian Angela Carini conceded the welterweight women’s boxing bout to Algerian Imane Khelif after 46 seconds, there was a firestorm all over social media, as hard-right misogynists and well-intended (surely?) chatshow hosts and children’s authors found common cause to condemn male violence against women. Why yes, that sounded bad. What was a man doing in the women’s boxing? Ah, it’s because she’s not a man; Khelif is the daughter of a welder, always has been. Then why has no woman ever beaten her? Ah, wrong again. Nine other women have beaten her, including the Irish boxer Amy Broadhurst. Then why did the International Boxing Association disqualify her? I guess you’d have to ask them, right after you asked them why they themselves have been stripped of Olympic recognition (governance issues; also finances). All’s I’m saying is, who not to ask.

Zoe Williams

The IOC think they are all-powerful and can do no wrong.
Arrogance.

BTW, I have reported the title of this thread, as it is not accurate, as Khelif is NOT a trans woman. It is a difficult, confusing and complext situation, but nothing to do with being trans. Being trans is a choice, Khelif was born female and declared female at birth, and probably did NOT know for a very long time, that she has HY chromosomes. So totally different situation.

Maggiemaybe

If I understand the situation, and as others have said, these boxers aren’t transgender women or people self-identifying as women. Rather women who were identified as female at birth who have now failed gender tests because they have been found to have y chromosomes/high testosterone levels. As happened with the runner Caster Semenya, who has an intersex condition.

I agree that they can’t in all fairness compete against other women on a level playing field, but I do have a lot of sympathy for them. It must be devastating to get this diagnosis, and not to be able to compete in the sport you love. And of course they get a lot of grief and abuse online.

But I still think the decision of the Olympic Committee to allow the boxers to take part is very wrong.

Yes, you're correct. Its a pity people don't check the facts before commenting.
It shouldn't have been allowed, in my opinion, as she has the Y chromosome and extra testosterone, so obviously unfair competition.
However the Olympic committee allowed it as she isn't a transgender woman, and the ruling is against transgender women. Apparently she has Swyer Syndrome, a rare genetic condition in which people who have an X chromosome and a Y chromosome (the usual pattern for males) look female. They have normal female reproductive organs, including a uterus, fallopian tubes, and vagina, but no ovaries. They are usually pronounced female at birth and brought up as female.
I agree with you, it must have been devastating for her.

Quote BeverleyJB Fri 02-Aug-24 21:44:22
I've tried to explain my understanding (as a lay person) from the research I've done in the hope that it's helpful. But of course you are all free to research for yourselves …..

The tests undertaken by the IBA on Khelif were not “gender tests” (whatever those may be) or hormonal tests, but genetic ones. Those tests determined that Khelif had XY chromosomes and, as a consequence, the IBA - which does not agree that men should be in a boxing ring with women, and has reaffirmed today 01/08/2024, that it will continue to protect women boxers - determined the he, as a male, should not take part in women's boxing.

Khelif has XY chromosomes, so is biologically male (whatever it may say on his passport, whatever clothes he was given to wear when a child, or whatever pronouns he chooses.) Human sex is immutable

This seems clear enough. .