Boxer forces female competitor to quit at the Olympic games [Title edited by GNHQ at poster's request]

Syracute you protest too much me thinks!

Jackiest

Before you can test for someone being female you have to define what female is. I have just tried googling a definition of female and it comes up with half a dozen different definitions. Chromosomes, hormones, testosterone, unless everyone can agree on a definition there will always be controversy.

Really you can't be serious!

For a start we can say anybody with testes whether internal or external which produce testosterone that their body can utilise is male. Caster Semenya's DSD (5 ard) including internal active testes caused a male puberty with all its advantages. That surely is totally unambiguous? Men with 5 ard can produce sperm and can father children. That will keep some out of the female category and we won't have the situation as in the Rio Olympics when athletes with the DSD 5 ards took gold, silver and bronze medals in the women's 800 metres..

I find it quite disheartening how many people just don't consider female sports worth protecting. As for the IOC "we determine sex and age by what's on their passport" I despair!
They might as well do away with women's events altogether and just make everything mixed, of course women won't be disadvantaged........

I saw a video clip of Imane Khelif absent mindedly rearranging his 'tackle' before fighting the female boxer! Explain that one.

Here's the clip:

x.com/blackbirdpeeja/status/1819352991453114391?s=61&t=qph6ruaz5B5GPjDn7jnZBw

Yoginimeisje

Jackiest

Before you can test for someone being female you have to define what female is. I have just tried googling a definition of female and it comes up with half a dozen different definitions. Chromosomes, hormones, testosterone, unless everyone can agree on a definition there will always be controversy.

Really you can't be serious!

Yes. What is your definition? Everyone thinks it is obvious and so did I but when I start thinking about it I am not sure any more.

Jackiest

Yoginimeisje

Jackiest

Before you can test for someone being female you have to define what female is. I have just tried googling a definition of female and it comes up with half a dozen different definitions. Chromosomes, hormones, testosterone, unless everyone can agree on a definition there will always be controversy.

Really you can't be serious!

Yes. What is your definition? Everyone thinks it is obvious and so did I but when I start thinking about it I am not sure any more.

In every sexually dimorphic group, the male is defined as the one organised to provide the small gamete, the female is the one organised to provide the large gamete. Sometimes nature goes wrong and that function isn't working for that individual but that doesn't negate the principal. It's strange how we accept this definition for every other mammal in creation but suddenly when it comes to humans 'feelings', 'being raised as' and 'passports' suddenly are more important.

Rosie51

Jackiest

Yoginimeisje

Jackiest

Before you can test for someone being female you have to define what female is. I have just tried googling a definition of female and it comes up with half a dozen different definitions. Chromosomes, hormones, testosterone, unless everyone can agree on a definition there will always be controversy.

Really you can't be serious!

Yes. What is your definition? Everyone thinks it is obvious and so did I but when I start thinking about it I am not sure any more.

In every sexually dimorphic group, the male is defined as the one organised to provide the small gamete, the female is the one organised to provide the large gamete. Sometimes nature goes wrong and that function isn't working for that individual but that doesn't negate the principal. It's strange how we accept this definition for every other mammal in creation but suddenly when it comes to humans 'feelings', 'being raised as' and 'passports' suddenly are more important.

Yes I am happy to accept that. So to take part as a female you have to have an ovary that produces an egg.

Yes I am happy to accept that. So to take part as a female you have to have an ovary that produces an egg. No! Please read what I posted. You have to be of the type of body that is organised, or should be organised to produce ova. If you are born without ovaries, or your ovaries don't function you are still female if you are XX. Having internal testes that may or may not produce sperm does not a woman make. It's almost like any male with a defect can be a woman. Women are not "lesser men".

Rosie51

^Yes I am happy to accept that. So to take part as a female you have to have an ovary that produces an egg.^ No! Please read what I posted. You have to be of the type of body that is organised, or should be organised to produce ova. If you are born without ovaries, or your ovaries don't function you are still female if you are XX. Having internal testes that may or may not produce sperm does not a woman make. It's almost like any male with a defect can be a woman. Women are not "lesser men".

So is it that your chromosomes have to be XX that we test for?

Jackiest

Rosie51

Yes I am happy to accept that. So to take part as a female you have to have an ovary that produces an egg. No! Please read what I posted. You have to be of the type of body that is organised, or should be organised to produce ova. If you are born without ovaries, or your ovaries don't function you are still female if you are XX. Having internal testes that may or may not produce sperm does not a woman make. It's almost like any male with a defect can be a woman. Women are not "lesser men".

So is it that your chromosomes have to be XX that we test for?

You deliberately replied saying something I had made clear did not apply, so I'm not going to keep responding to your obvious, but trying to be subtle, baiting.

Have it your way, there's absolutely no way to tell males from females. There's no point having a female category since there's no way of telling who that would encompass. Won't just be the XXs who will suffer but also the XY with 5ard, not forgetting the transwomen with XY and no DSD. The men who always competed against other men won't be affected so that's fine!

Quote Aveline Sun 04-Aug-24 16:57:49
'Of no consequence'! Really?
Add comment | Report | Private message | Quote DamaskRose Sun 04-Aug-24 17:14:18
“Of no consequence” - do you mean in any sport??
Add comment | Report | Private message | Quote Galaxy Sun 04-Aug-24 17:21:22
I think he means that the test itself should be carried out as it is of no consequence as they are tested for various reasons anyway.

All athletes are regularly tested to stop them using unapproved drugs, if a female has raised testosterone or any other hormone it has to be investigated.
Some babies are misrecorded because they have non typical genitals, although they appear female they develop as a male, that does not mean they should be allowed to compete in female competitions.

I think I got sucked in to this partly by the title (re trans etc) but the more I read and the more I think about it this person has got a pretty difficult life they are not really able to prove anything if I m reading correctly. I do believe the Italian lady was wrong to refuse to fight and wrong to refuse to shake their hand ( she has apologised) I watched the next fight with the Hungarian girl and didn’t feel Khalif fought that well although they were declared the winner.
What’s the answer well it’s surely that every person entering the Olympics has to have a one off test and only then can they perform in which ever category their test results put them in
Men and women all have the same test taken by an independent medical body

Sorry Rosie51 I was not trying to bait you I was trying to show that there is no perfect test to say that a person is male or female. We will have to settle for a compromise. At the moment I think the compromise is to much in favour of allowing people to be female.

Thank you for amending the title GNHQ .

Even this title's not right The boxer (meaning The Algerian ) didn’t force the Italian to quit she made that decision herself

I ran this by DD today as she has spent the last 30 years working with DNA and genetics She said on the face of it anyone with XY chromosomes is male, but the whole subject is very complicated. We agreed that they need to come up with a decisive test that could be used across all sports and would be acceptable to everyone.

🤞🤞This is the nearest I can get to the crossed fingers the brave women boxers have used in the Olympics. I am with them 100%.

Shouldn't this thread be taken down? It is misleading repeatedly calling a biological woman a man...

Well the cheat has won a gold medal. IOC should hang their heads in shame at their total failure of governance.

Aveline

Well the cheat has won a gold medal. IOC should hang their heads in shame at their total failure of governance.

“Cheat” seems to imply some form of deliberate deception.

It’s my understanding that this boxer and her family are convinced she is biological woman.

This boxers has lost matches in other competitions to women, I could understand it more if every match this boxer competed in was won by a country mile.

This is an interesting article on the difficulty on deciding if a person is male or female.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crlr8gp813ko

x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1821903707635618276

Twitter thread by a developmental biologist. Charts the history of sex testing. Who'd have thought it started with worms?

I heard an interesting theory yesterday, that the whole thing was a malicious rumour started by the female Italian boxer - that the Algerian had in fact been born female with undefined genitals, and had been raised, mistakenly, as a boy.

Having previously failed a test and been disqualified ExDancer, I fail to see how this issue could be down to a malicious rumour.