Keir Starmer aka Captain Flip Flop

Oreo

Doodledog

We haven't had the budget yet, and KS has led the government for six weeks or so.

Workplace appraisals and performance reviews are usually annual for a reason. Surely it's sensible to wait until the government has had a year or so before judging them on their performance? At least wait until we've heard the budget before criticising what might (or might not) be announced?

Well, errr, yes and no.
True that they haven’t been in power very long but look at what’s happening so far and it isn’t inspiring.

What hasn't inspired you?

I'm not picking on your posts, but I can't work out what you mean. I understand that people (including me) are unhappy about the withdrawal of the WFP, but we don't know yet what will be announced in the budget that might temper it. What else has happened so far?

I'm not defending KS - I just don't know what he's being accused of doing.

I didn’t have a time limit for being inspired.

The LP knew what they were up against, shortage of prison places, black holes etc. They’ve been pointing it out for long enough.
Southport and the fall out from that was unexpected.

I’m delighted that they’re imprisoning the rioters, even though I was puzzled about where they were going to put them in view of the claims about the state of the prisons and shortage of places.
Then I was reassured on GN that the easy solution was to simply release existing prisoners early.

I definitely didn’t expect to see what Labour disapproved of in the last government being quickly introduced by themselves within a short time. (How many weeks is it now?)

Six.

The people being released are those who had short sentences for non-violent crimes, so are not being released on a like for like basis.

If you are delighted to see rioters imprisoned, what would you have done to accommodate them?

Ilovecheese

Dickens said "Other countries appear to be able to run a robust Capitalist economy and invest in its people. Why can't we?"
I don't know why we can't either. We seem to hold Conservative "handbag economics" as some sort of non negotiable truth. But it is just a theory.
Now this Starmer Government is following the same sort of economics as George Osborne because they think it makes them look tough and sensible, hoping that private enterprise will do their job for them.

We seem to hold Conservative "handbag economics"...

I like that Ilovecheese - handbag economics

I read a comment from an economist some time ago- he said that if the electorate really understood how the economy works, there would be a revolution.

It's in governments' interests isn't it, to make sure we don't.

If you are delighted to see rioters imprisoned, what would you have done to accommodate them?
I don’t have to consider that. I’ve already been told on GN that the solution is to release other prisoners early and since that has already been happening for some time, it wasn’t a new strategy, though the range of early may have changed.

MayBee70

And how dare you describe the PM with a term coined by a previous PM who was thrown out of parliament for lying

Free speech, until Starmer and Co put a stop on name calling. He has flip flopped, or U turned if you prefer, a term used to bash the Tories, but applies to Labour too. Or as Big Issue states, " the Ming Vase strategy". Never would he stop WFP, he has, charitable status to be removed from private schools, now changed to vat charges, refusing to end two child limit as he had previously stated in a tweet on X in 2020 that Labour would do so, not so now. A plan to remove tuition fees pledged in 2017 and 2019, not so now. Nationalisation, now 9nly for Railways, nothing else.Plenty more but can't be bothered. So you see where the name sprung from.

Don’t you understand that sensible people change their plans if finances or circumstances change?
I expect you fully understand that but your fixed views won’t allow that to be acknowledged

Mollygo

^If you are delighted to see rioters imprisoned, what would you have done to accommodate them?^
I don’t have to consider that. I’ve already been told on GN that the solution is to release other prisoners early and since that has already been happening for some time, it wasn’t a new strategy, though the range of early may have changed.

You've lost me now

Are you saying you do or don't think that rioters should have been jailed if it meant releasing non-violent offenders to make room for them?

Doodledog

Mollygo

If you are delighted to see rioters imprisoned, what would you have done to accommodate them?
I don’t have to consider that. I’ve already been told on GN that the solution is to release other prisoners early and since that has already been happening for some time, it wasn’t a new strategy, though the range of early may have changed.

You've lost me now

Are you saying you do or don't think that rioters should have been jailed if it meant releasing non-violent offenders to make room for them?

The bigger question is - why are prisons full to capacity, why is the justice system labouring under a backlog of cases?

In fact, why are all our public services grinding towards a halt? Why is the country in the state it is in?

Freya5.
You must not criticise the Labour Party or Starmer.

They have only been in power 4weeks, no 5 weeks, no it’s 6 weeks and part of that time they’ve been on holiday.

You must not attack Starmer for going for pensioners fuel allowance, whilst continuing to spend vast amounts on food in the HoP and allowing MPs their fuel allowance despite them earning well over the cut off point for the level of income pensioners are allowed.

You may hark back to the state of the country thanks to the Conservatives (I don’t disagree about all of that), but you must not hark back to the actions of the previous Labour government, even if they are impacting you now and especially not if they contributed to your need for a WFA.

Just because Starmer said Sunak was wrong to withdraw the WFA to fill in the “black hole” can’t possibly mean that Starmer is wrong to withdraw it for the same black hole.

Mollygo

Freya5.
You must not criticise the Labour Party or Starmer.

They have only been in power 4weeks, no 5 weeks, no it’s 6 weeks and part of that time they’ve been on holiday.

You must not attack Starmer for going for pensioners fuel allowance, whilst continuing to spend vast amounts on food in the HoP and allowing MPs their fuel allowance despite them earning well over the cut off point for the level of income pensioners are allowed.

You may hark back to the state of the country thanks to the Conservatives (I don’t disagree about all of that), but you must not hark back to the actions of the previous Labour government, even if they are impacting you now and especially not if they contributed to your need for a WFA.

Just because Starmer said Sunak was wrong to withdraw the WFA to fill in the “black hole” can’t possibly mean that Starmer is wrong to withdraw it for the same black hole.

Is that really how you see it?

I don't at all. Yes, the number of weeks in power keeps moving - a bit like my age - but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Nobody is saying you must not do anything - people are simply giving their point of view, and those differ, as they always did, and they are subject to snide comments for doing so, as they always are.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to point out that a lot of what is facing the government is a direct result of the policies of the previous one - they only left office six weeks ago - whereas going back decades to criticise people like Gordon Brown is pointless, as he's not even in the cabinet. His policies may still have impact on people today (as I've said, Mr Dog's pension was raided, so we are living with that too), but that doesn't mean that this will happen again under Rachel Reeves. If it does, then I for one will be criticising loud and clear.

Mollygo that made me laugh😁
We should all be able to criticise any government, both on here and anywhere else.
I criticise it for the withdrawal of WFA and for the unfair crackdown on some protesters, one 20 year old with no previous shouted and threw a can and was jailed.A few others who did similar the same and jail time for those who said horrible things on SM. It’s more the sort of attitude I would expect from a tory government and am surprised at Labour posters on here who enthusiastically go along with it.
What else? Ah the enormous salary increases for junior doctors and train drivers.Now GP’s will want the same, other train drivers will strike for more pay and it wouldn’t be a shock if the nurses, enraged at their smaller increases consider industrial action.
I expected RR to pour more money into Councils to get better things for us in services but not so far.Have to see if there are goodies in the Autumn budget.

I think what this is in reality Doodledog is a grieving process, and consequently failure to accept that Labour are going to be in power for the next five years. Deliberately provocative threads are started, people say inaccurate and inflammatory things and then when other people point out the detail of the situation, they are pounced on and derided. Another similar thread has been started this morning. I’ve realised not everybody can put their personal angst to one side at the moment. Is it worth engaging - I don’t think it is just now.

Thanks Oreo.
I know all the excuses about the previous Labour Government, but it’s quite funny, if sadly so, that the previous LP impacted (towards then end of their time in power), on pensioners now, and this LP doesn’t waste any time in impacting on pensioners again, many of those who are also still impacted by their previous action.

I probably won’t care, by the time the parties swap again, but I am 100% certain that those criticising the recent conservative government will still be harking back to that by then.

Casdon

I think what this is in reality Doodledog is a grieving process, and consequently failure to accept that Labour are going to be in power for the next five years. Deliberately provocative threads are started, people say inaccurate and inflammatory things and then when other people point out the detail of the situation, they are pounced on and derided. Another similar thread has been started this morning. I’ve realised not everybody can put their personal angst to one side at the moment. Is it worth engaging - I don’t think it is just now.

I don’t agree at all, tho of course some Conservative or Lib Dem voters may be put out just like us Labour voters were at every election for so many years.
The things that were said about tories on forums!Deliberately provocative threads, ✔️ and inflammatory things, Derision, ✔️
Especially where old Boris was concerned.Angst ✔️
Saying it isn’t worth engaging now is just not on.Engage and answer criticism while not being too defensive about Labour is the way to go.😃

"Saying it isn’t worth engaging now is just not on.Engage and answer criticism while not being too defensive about Labour is the way to go.😃"

I agree its the way to go (eg for me being a L Party member but criticising WFA) but in terms of engagement and when we want to do it, its a personal choice whether its worth it at any given point.

I did choose to engage on the new thread as I wanted to give some basic information out despite it being a clearly provocative O/P and was on a specific point.

Oreo

Casdon

I think what this is in reality Doodledog is a grieving process, and consequently failure to accept that Labour are going to be in power for the next five years. Deliberately provocative threads are started, people say inaccurate and inflammatory things and then when other people point out the detail of the situation, they are pounced on and derided. Another similar thread has been started this morning. I’ve realised not everybody can put their personal angst to one side at the moment. Is it worth engaging - I don’t think it is just now.

I don’t agree at all, tho of course some Conservative or Lib Dem voters may be put out just like us Labour voters were at every election for so many years.
The things that were said about tories on forums!Deliberately provocative threads, ✔️ and inflammatory things, Derision, ✔️
Especially where old Boris was concerned.Angst ✔️
Saying it isn’t worth engaging now is just not on.Engage and answer criticism while not being too defensive about Labour is the way to go.😃

It’s okay if we disagree Oreo. I’m all for discussion, as you know from other threads, and I know you are too. However, discussion isn’t taking place when the same people post the same things on multiple threads, or when they post in formats which are clearly designed to provoke a reaction rather than to engage in a discussion. We can only raise the debate on here if people get out of the old train tracks and onto new ones.

Well said, Casdon.

I have been thinking the same as Casdon about not really finding it worth engaging in many politics threads presently. In fact, this post was a bit longer and more explanatory, but I realised it felt pointless, so deleted most of it.

I expect things will get going a bit more with parliament returning and the conservative leadership contest.
Yes, ditto, Casdon.

Siope I have done exactly the same thing. I took a short break from GN whilst away and coming back to it I just felt a sense of deja vu. It's a shame, I used to enjoy reading the politics and news threads, I've had my mind changed on occasions by well reasoned arguments or links to information that I hadn't considered but there's an unpleasantness in some posts ATM which I find off putting and increasingly personal.

foxie48

Siope I have done exactly the same thing. I took a short break from GN whilst away and coming back to it I just felt a sense of deja vu. It's a shame, I used to enjoy reading the politics and news threads, I've had my mind changed on occasions by well reasoned arguments or links to information that I hadn't considered but there's an unpleasantness in some posts ATM which I find off putting and increasingly personal.

I've had my mind changed on occasions by well reasoned arguments or links to information that I hadn't considered but there's an unpleasantness in some posts ATM which I find off putting and increasingly personal.

Me too foxie48.

As for the unpleasantness - it's because we seem to be debating the posters rather than the politics.

As Casdon said, "However, discussion isn’t taking place when the same people post the same things on multiple threads, or when they post in formats which are clearly designed to provoke a reaction rather than to engage in a discussion."

Members of GN can, of course, post in whatever style they choose. But I'm not convinced that anyone who makes comments referring to the sainted Starmer, or Mr Flip-Flop is interested in serious discussion. I've been on SM sites long enough to know when a poster is goading, and that any constructive argument intended to further debate will lead nowhere, and is pointless.

GNetters were, previously, sometimes criticised for "Tory bashing" and, quite frankly - even tho' I'm a fierce critic of the previous government - there were posts from some who appeared to be doing just that, for the sake of it.

And it's futile to engage in these kinds of discussions because it always ends up with personal attacks - the politics are lost. So I'm also going to take a break from N&P threads.

For the record, I voted for Starmer's LP. But I have every intention of holding him and it to account in the same way as I did the previous government. I think removing the WFA was wrong and, frankly, am very sceptical about the so-called "black hole" - but that's a discussion for another day.

Well Dickens your long and well thought out posts will be missed.😃

I am wondering, Dickens, how you are going to hold Starmer and the Labour party to account? They have a huge majority, brought about primarily by tactical voting, combined with a disengaged electorate many of whom chose not to vote, resulting in a Parliament filled with MPs chosen simply because they are not Tories rather than a belief in their policies.
The speed with which the fuel allowance has been removed, and the handing out of unjustified pay increases to already well-paid union members show clearly who runs this country, and it isn't Starmer.
There is no viable opposition at present and no means of holding Starmer to his promises, or denials.

There never is a viable opposition to government if you're looking for it to change government policy and legislation. That's the way that Westminster works and it applies whatever the size of the government majority.

All that the opposition can do is be critical of the government and hope to persuade voters to their point of view in order to influence future elections. The only tool that voters have is the ballot box.