Assisted dying

Philippa111

I am exited for this to come into law. I’ve been a supporter of assisted dying since I was young. My point has been that animals who are suffering can very gently be put to sleep painlessly and in a humane way. Humans however, no matter how much they are suffering, do not have this choice and can have an agonising end of life and can be left with no dignity at all . I watched the programme about a man who chose to go to Dignitas in Switzerland. It was a deeply moving film and ultimately it was not only the best outcome for the man who had no quality of life to look forward to and also for his family and friends who didn’t have the deep distress of watching the person they loved have s horrendous end to his life.
I just hope it gets into law soon so I that will have the option should I need it and be able to die at home and not have to go to another country to die.
People always mention that coercion and manipulation might happen but my response to that is if other countries can manage it are we so corrupt that we couldn’t manage it too. It’s not a valid reason and it leaves a lot of people in a horrendous state. I don’t think suffering should be obligatory!

I explained on another thread the horror of my beloved dog being put to sleep "painlessly" and how it wasn't at all how people describe it. I've read of the same situation with humane executions, it isn't always that humane. With my dog I suspect she had some sort of allergic reaction to the sedative and she went berserk, I can still hear the crack of her skull as we were unable to hold her and she crashed her skull on the floor.

I don't think anyone should feel they need to do this to spare their friends and relatives, that is truly awful.

Do you have any proof there isn't coercion in other countries?

theworriedwell: .......

I read that story as well, and also the other side of the story.

Frequently with sick/fragile folks, they don't hear all that is been said, but pick up on the parts that seem to alarm them the most.

**With a lot of more serious medical procedures we all go through, I think it's important to have an extra pair of ears with us.

I remember a lady in her early 70's in hospital for an operation being ask if she wanted a DNR [Do Not Resuscitate] on her chart.....This is now apparently a routine question in many hospitals. She was scared to death that they were going to kill her~~ poor soul !! Fortunately her friend was with her and they were able to explain what it was all about.

Not everyone has an extra pair of ears available to them.

For most things in life we have a choice- but for some reason we don't want to give people a choice . I'm glad that some people have known their loved ones have a peaceful death but I fear it is the minority. My mother had a terrible death as the Dr refused to give her enough morphine DESPITE the hospital knowing she had a short time to live.
I don't think that people who are religious should be ignored as I remember a Minister saying he agreed with assisted dying. I have a strong belief and don't think that God would want anyone to suffer. YET Drs appear to want that.
I've written to my MP but I don't trust him to represent my views . how does an MP cast his vote - his choice or that of his constituents ? I think the country needs to vote and not a person who may never have known the burden of seeing someone suffer .

B9exchange

I think it is telling that over 80% of doctors and over 80% of those working in palliative care are against assisted dying. Doctors went into the profession to try their best to heal people, with the motto engrained into their training of 'first do no harm'. Basically they don't want to be part of killing people! As a nurse many years ago we used to ease people out of this life if their pain became too much, it was never made common knowledge, and I believe that now patients and relatives are asked if they would like to be rendered unconscious in cases like this.

For me the problem of the slippery slope is insurmountable, and this is why the disabled are so against it. As with abortion, which started off with very strict criteria which were then gradually relaxed. I am all for abortion as long as it is not just used as birth control, but it seems that is effectively how it is being used now for many people.

You start off with limiting it to people judged to have less than six months to live, then you expand it to those with life limiting diseases, then to those with incurable diseases, then to adults with mental health problems, then children with mental health problems, until there are very few limits at all. If assisted dying goes through, no safeguards will prevent the expansion scope, as can be seen in countries who have started down this route.

To me it is the worry of coercion by relatives who don't want to see the house go in care fees, but more than that, just the feeling of guilt from those who feel they are becoming an expensive burden, and that it is their duty to request death to relieve others of that worry. If there was an option to save the bulk of my savings for the family, rather than spend it on care, I know that I would feel duty bound to take it.

This is a brilliant and thought provoking post, B9exchange. Thank you.

B9exchange
I think it is telling that over 80% of doctors and over 80% of those working in palliative care are against assisted dying. Doctors went into the profession to try their best to heal people, with the motto engrained into their training of 'first do no harm'. Basically they don't want to be part of killing people!

The 80% relates (you claim) to doctors working in palliative care. It is not reflective of doctors overall where the support for assisted dying is far higher (BMA survey statistics available online).
I don't know the percentage of doctors working in palliative care but l would assume rather low.

If assisted dying becomes the norm, how long will it be before you are considered to be a selfish nuisance if you don't comply.

I totally agree with assisted dying for myself …. It others have a different opinion…. If you think about it so many people commit suicide without anyone else involved ….. their choice ….. so my choice is to end my life with dignity on my own . I was told about MAID in Canada on a cruise whilst talking to some Canadian passengers…… such a shame that the UK is not in favour whilst hospices are closing because of lack of funds, palliative care and social care are NON EXISTENT thanks to govt underfunding … whilst the REALITY IS euthanasia IS practiced in hospital settings and care homes …. Remember the edict during COVID to send positive cases BACK to care homes depicts the old would die off as Boris put it !!!! I looked into joining DIGNITAS but if I paid the annual subscription and died before I could get there I would have to haunt them 🤣…..but the £15,000 plus two pre date visits to Zurich are expensive it is FAR CHEAPER than a care home at £8,000 a MONTH ….. until your money runs out…… and you are thrown out …..the whole system is underfunded and the promise of social care reform is not even on the agenda 😡

boheminan

Finally. New vote on assisted dying coming soon

What's your views?

It is not something I agree with. I consider it to be against my Christian faith.

I would like to say this:

If the Bill is made law, then the practice of hospital consultants to write on a patients file ; DO NOT RESCUSITATE (DNR)because the Bill says the patient has to agree to terminate their life, and most of those patients with that on their file are never consulted.

If such a Bill, when passed into law states that the patient must be given a choice, then that is for everyone, and someone should be appointed to go into hospitals and review those files. It would have to be confidential, between the review and the patient's relatives, but everyone should be given the choice.

Having worked as a palliative care nurse for more than 20 years, it became clear that life is not about quantity but quality.
So when it comes to medically assisted dying, this should largely depend upon what one considers a tolerable quality of life once diagnosed with a terminal illness. Often symptoms can be controlled well when in the care of an experienced palliative nurse and knowledgeable consultant. However problems rise when there is a lack of understanding with regard to “holistic care” involving; physical, emotional, psychological and social aspects of the person. It’s not as simple as stopping physical pain when the psychological and emotional aspects are painful to the extreme. Many people simply want to have choice, and in knowing that you had that would choose to live as long as was tolerable. Currently people wanting assisted dying have to be well enough to be able to travel, which in turn means they bring their end date forward. If it were legal in this country this would delayed to the natural near ending of life. A death with respect for personal choice and dignity.
As a country I think we should all be given a vote on this very personal subject. This should not be left up to MPs to decide.

To me, a choice someone makes when they are of sound mind and body, may change drastically when they're not.

Humans are very adaptable to all kinds of situations that they thought they could never cope with, and a diminished mind often means that things they found demeaning may now not be.

It's easy to say "I'd end it, or demand the right to", but that is sometimes enough, to know that there is that choice, and it means people will choose to keep living.

Without giving too much identifying information, I was in a situation where I should be terminal. A fellow patient informed me that in my situation they would commit suicide. I replied I was clinging on as long as I possibly could, the instinct to survive is strong and innate. Maybe because I had young children and she was a young single person it made a difference. Just you never know how you'll actually feel until you're faced with the problem. Theory is another world. If this legislation passes there will undoubtedly be people who feel pressured into the decision, and that is beyond sad.

Win You will also be aware with your experience that 6 months prediction, does often not hold, no-one knows for sure when it is the last 6 months of anyones life. My late mother was given a week on CHC she lived 2 years. My late husband was given Maximum 6 month on CHC and lived 8 years. To this day I wouldn't have chosen assisted living for either of them.

Yes the prediction is not necessarily accurate. Within the context of assisted dying the key is that when the patient feels that their quality of life is not worth bothering with, they can make that choice. So if the 6 months prediction with a life limiting illness is wrong and life is worth living for them, that is positive. They dont have to choose to end their life because of the prediction.

Having said that difficulties still exist in the context of patients no longer capable of making that decision for whatever reason.

I am sorry that you went through those experiences Win. I have experienced similar and it's very hard. 💐

Nurseundercover

Having worked as a palliative care nurse for more than 20 years, it became clear that life is not about quantity but quality.
So when it comes to medically assisted dying, this should largely depend upon what one considers a tolerable quality of life once diagnosed with a terminal illness. Often symptoms can be controlled well when in the care of an experienced palliative nurse and knowledgeable consultant. However problems rise when there is a lack of understanding with regard to “holistic care” involving; physical, emotional, psychological and social aspects of the person. It’s not as simple as stopping physical pain when the psychological and emotional aspects are painful to the extreme. Many people simply want to have choice, and in knowing that you had that would choose to live as long as was tolerable. Currently people wanting assisted dying have to be well enough to be able to travel, which in turn means they bring their end date forward. If it were legal in this country this would delayed to the natural near ending of life. A death with respect for personal choice and dignity.
As a country I think we should all be given a vote on this very personal subject. This should not be left up to MPs to decide.

Spot on

MissAdventure

To me, a choice someone makes when they are of sound mind and body, may change drastically when they're not.

Humans are very adaptable to all kinds of situations that they thought they could never cope with, and a diminished mind often means that things they found demeaning may now not be.

It's easy to say "I'd end it, or demand the right to", but that is sometimes enough, to know that there is that choice, and it means people will choose to keep living.

This is so true.

This may have been said already up-thread. I have read some but not all posts, mostly in batches since the thread began, so I'll have missed some. This is an explanation not an apology.

In my several years of reading about the subject of assisted suicide/assisted dying - whatever name it's given - one point has seemed very significant. When people know they have the option to end their suffering at a time that they choose, that often helps them to tolerate more than they might when no prospect of release is available to them.

I find that a point in its favour.

A very good point I think Baggs

And the goalposts do move as you get older - what would have seemed intolerable when young simply becomes a way of life to which we adapt. Which is a good reason to be wary of advance directives.

Many years ago, probably around 40, there was a series of documentaries about terminal illness and they looked at a variety of cases. One that sticks in my mind is a man who was dying and his wife was angry it was taking too long. She said something about how she was still young, had young children and needed to get on with finding someone else. Imagine the pressure she would put on her inconvenient husband who was taking too long to die.

Luckygirl3

And the goalposts do move as you get older - what would have seemed intolerable when young simply becomes a way of life to which we adapt. Which is a good reason to be wary of advance directives.

Absolutely we do adapt; an ongoing process for me over the last year or so which will continue. But the assisted dying bill is not about adaptation to variations on old age illnesses and disabilities. It is about when quality of life as the person experiencing it sees it, that is no longer worth experiencing.

Sorry meant to say too advanced directives are certainly debatable but are specifically separate from assisted dying as identified at present, in terms of the choice of the person who feels their (non) quality of life is no longer worth experiencing in the context of a life limiting illness.

CocoPops

Medical assistance in dying (M.A.I.D) is lawful here in Canada. I had a close friend who opted for M.A.I.D. She had lived with a chronic illness since childhood which worsened over the years, requiring spells in hospital. She had lived a happy and independent life and always maintained she would never go into a residential home. At 82 years old her condition worsened and she landed up in hospital. Very frail but totally "with it" mentally. She had reached the stage where independent living wasn't possible and said, "CocoPops, I can't look after myself anymore more. I want M.A.I.D." (She had been considering M.A.I.D. for 3 months.) Once the arrangements were made, she was relaxed, seemed happy and
my good friend died at a time of her choosing with her family at the bedside.Of course I was devastated but grateful she had the choice.

Thank you for sharing this very personal story of your friend’s choice. It is helpful to hear actual experiences of how this can work. I have a daughter with chronic illness who always maintains that she does not want to continue if she can’t live independently, so this issue is never far from my mind. I have promised to help her use Dignitas if necessary but it’s infinitely better to think that she might have this option here at home. But I’m also very aware of the potential risk to her as someone who is sometimes very unwell. On balance, I do want her (and others) to have the choice, especially as I get older and I know I may not be here to help her. I see it as a humane and a necessary step as medical advances mean that lives can be prolonged beyond the point where there is much quality left.
My OH has a more pessimistic view of human nature than me and feels that inevitably people will be coerced to end their lives my families who don’t want to see their inheritance lost to care costs.

‘By’

Considering the lengths some parents will go to cushion their grown up children from living within their means, doing without, and so on, I wouldnt be at all surprised to see angst ridden posts on gransnet.
"Should I end it all so my dd can buy a house?'

Oh Lahlah my heart goes out to you: what an awful situation, and what a terrible dilemma for you and your daughter.
I do share a little of your OH's suspicions which has always made me feel opposed to the concept, but Baggs well made point, and your difficulties have made me start to re- think.
Sending you a virtual hug and flowers.