Amsterdam attacks

Absolutely, Annie. I intended my post to be about not making things worse.

Then the Israeli football team were prepared for trouble and it was there waiting for them

it should be made clear to the fans by their own club management and possibly Israeli authorities that any provoking attacks and chanting are out of order
I agree that something like that needs to be done Wyllow 3.
Every football supporter, everywhere, should have the right to attend a match without living in fear of encountering violence before, during or after the event. Equally every football fan should behave responsibly and respectfully, especially when playing away, and not provoke attacks.

Chanting is more problematic because we witness this from demonstrators in the streets totally separate from the actual football. It would be easy to ban flags and placards, but I'm not sure how chanting can be effectively curtailed?

Good post * Wyllow3*. 👍

Anniebach

Then the Israeli football team were prepared for trouble and it was there waiting for them

Yes, Anniebach, I see it like that.
Apparently there had been rising tension in Amsterdam for several days before the Thursday match because it was also a Pro Palestinian week of protests in Dam Square. Maybe the timing was unfortunate.

but I do think that it should be made clear to the fans by their own club management and possibly Israeli authorities that any provoking attacks and chanting are out of order. When it comes down to mocking children who've died surely its obviously not OK?

I'm sure everyone would agree with that, Wyllow, but why did Israel send Mossad agents with the fans?

escaped denial will continue and fault/blame will be placed on Jews

It’s clear from investigations so far that a toxic mix of antisemitism, hooliganism and anger over the war in Palestine/Isreal and other countries in the Middle East led to the dreadful scenes in Amsterdam. The mayor claims not to have been aware the match was high risk despite trouble brewing before the match. Police say Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag the day before the match. It’s clear some Maccabi fans were looking for trouble and Palestian supporters were happy to join in. Planned use of scooters, driven by masked men chased and attacked people, mostly those in Maccabi colours.
So political rather than straightforward football hooliganism. It’s irritating to see attempts to deny anti semitism by claiming Maccabi supporters ‘started it’.
That’s the criticism offered levelled at victims. That they provoked attacks

Thats what the Dutch newspaper De Telegraf reported Maizie but I've not seen other reports?

www-telegraaf-nl.translate.goog/sport/160352077/mossad-reist-met-maccabi-tel-aviv-mee-naar-amsterdam-voor-uitduel-met-ajax?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

Wyllow3

Thats what the Dutch newspaper De Telegraf reported Maizie but I've not seen other reports?

www-telegraaf-nl.translate.goog/sport/160352077/mossad-reist-met-maccabi-tel-aviv-mee-naar-amsterdam-voor-uitduel-met-ajax?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

It was announced in one of the Israeli newspapers before the fans even left Israel. I've seen so much about this whole affair now that I can't put my finger on it straight away, but I'll have a hunt.

Good post Iam64.
It’s strange, given the circumstances in the Middle East, and that there had been a week of pro Palestinian protests in Dam Square, that the mayor of Amsterdam claims to have not been aware that the match was high risk. I would have thought that the political situation re the war in Israel would have very much made this match a high risk event, and therefore the city needed very high numbers of police visible. It has been said that there were no police around in the city, which is partly why these attacks were able to happen, with no authority available to intervene.

Iam64

It’s clear from investigations so far that a toxic mix of antisemitism, hooliganism and anger over the war in Palestine/Isreal and other countries in the Middle East led to the dreadful scenes in Amsterdam. The mayor claims not to have been aware the match was high risk despite trouble brewing before the match. Police say Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag the day before the match. It’s clear some Maccabi fans were looking for trouble and Palestian supporters were happy to join in. Planned use of scooters, driven by masked men chased and attacked people, mostly those in Maccabi colours.
So political rather than straightforward football hooliganism. It’s irritating to see attempts to deny anti semitism by claiming Maccabi supporters ‘started it’.
That’s the criticism offered levelled at victims. That they provoked attacks

But Iam64 the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans did provoke the attacks. I'm not denying the existence of antisemitism, either now or in history, but I don't accept that people are victims if they go round provoking others. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans would have known very well that there would be retaliation.

Here you are:

www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/soccer/just-in-case-mossad-agents-to-join-maccabi-tel-aviv-fc-trip-to-amsterdam/ar-AA1txYMn

Strangely, although Mossad are in the headline there is no mention of them in the actual article. What were they going to do if 'just in case' actually happened? 'Just in case' of what?

Is it usual for a country to send its intelligence agents (who also undertake covert operations) off with a football team on an away fixture?

growstuff

Iam64

It’s clear from investigations so far that a toxic mix of antisemitism, hooliganism and anger over the war in Palestine/Isreal and other countries in the Middle East led to the dreadful scenes in Amsterdam. The mayor claims not to have been aware the match was high risk despite trouble brewing before the match. Police say Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag the day before the match. It’s clear some Maccabi fans were looking for trouble and Palestian supporters were happy to join in. Planned use of scooters, driven by masked men chased and attacked people, mostly those in Maccabi colours.
So political rather than straightforward football hooliganism. It’s irritating to see attempts to deny anti semitism by claiming Maccabi supporters ‘started it’.
That’s the criticism offered levelled at victims. That they provoked attacks

But Iam64 the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans did provoke the attacks. I'm not denying the existence of antisemitism, either now or in history, but I don't accept that people are victims if they go round provoking others. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans would have known very well that there would be retaliation.

I've seen images of pro Palestine protesters burning Israeli flags. Does that mean they wouldn't be victims if some Israel supporters decide to retaliate?
I don't condone the vile chanting, but can chanting be a justifiable excuse for violent retaliation? Some of the chanting on the Palestine protest marches in London is seen as provocative, I doubt you'd condone violence as a counter to that.

Some of my thoughts behind my earlier post, and suggestions, were that the victims here are surely the local Jewish people having to live with anti-semitism day by day in Denmark.

How - in any way at all - did it help them to have the Maccobi fans chanting truly horrible hateful slogans in the streets, just inflaming matters?

Good point which has been ignored so far Rosie51

Wyllow3

Some of my thoughts behind my earlier post, and suggestions, were that the victims here are surely the local Jewish people having to live with anti-semitism day by day in Denmark.

How - in any way at all - did it help them to have the Maccobi fans chanting truly horrible hateful slogans in the streets, just inflaming matters?

You mean Amsterdam?

Good post Iam64 👏🏻👏🏻

The Mayor and police in Amsterdam are either innocent beyond anything ever seen, inept or didn’t care what happened.

Hopefully all sporting events including football where Israeli fans attend will be properly policed.

Wyllow3

Some of my thoughts behind my earlier post, and suggestions, were that the victims here are surely the local Jewish people having to live with anti-semitism day by day in Denmark.

How - in any way at all - did it help them to have the Maccobi fans chanting truly horrible hateful slogans in the streets, just inflaming matters?

It didn't help them at all. I'm not sure of the extent of anti-semitism in Holland, but the kind of vile chants will have given anti-semites an excuse for what they do.

Rosie51

growstuff

Iam64

It’s clear from investigations so far that a toxic mix of antisemitism, hooliganism and anger over the war in Palestine/Isreal and other countries in the Middle East led to the dreadful scenes in Amsterdam. The mayor claims not to have been aware the match was high risk despite trouble brewing before the match. Police say Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag the day before the match. It’s clear some Maccabi fans were looking for trouble and Palestian supporters were happy to join in. Planned use of scooters, driven by masked men chased and attacked people, mostly those in Maccabi colours.
So political rather than straightforward football hooliganism. It’s irritating to see attempts to deny anti semitism by claiming Maccabi supporters ‘started it’.
That’s the criticism offered levelled at victims. That they provoked attacks

But Iam64 the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans did provoke the attacks. I'm not denying the existence of antisemitism, either now or in history, but I don't accept that people are victims if they go round provoking others. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans would have known very well that there would be retaliation.

I've seen images of pro Palestine protesters burning Israeli flags. Does that mean they wouldn't be victims if some Israel supporters decide to retaliate?
I don't condone the vile chanting, but can chanting be a justifiable excuse for violent retaliation? Some of the chanting on the Palestine protest marches in London is seen as provocative, I doubt you'd condone violence as a counter to that.

I haven't seen footage of burning of Israeli flags in Amsterdam, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I don't condone the violence on either side. My point all along has been about bow biased the reporting has been. It is quite clear - and even the Dutch police admit it - that the Maccabi Tel Aviv instigated the violence. They started their chants almost as soon as they arrived and the attack on the Moroccan taxi driver happened before there were any reported attacks on them. They started ripping up bits of metal and wood to use as weapons. Why did they do that? My suggestion is they were looking for a fight and didn't like it when they got one.

Just to remind people ... they were chanting 'f*ck Arabs', calling for the IDF to kill them and mocking dead Arab children. In the past they have chanted about raping Arab women and drinking their blood when they're dead. Is it really any wonder that Arabs retaliated?

Rosie51 There was more than vile chanting. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans attacked the taxi driver and his car with a chain. They had tooled themselves up before there was any retaliation. The time stamps on some of the published videos and witnesses have shown pretty conclusively the sequence of events.

Oreo

Wyllow3

Some of my thoughts behind my earlier post, and suggestions, were that the victims here are surely the local Jewish people having to live with anti-semitism day by day in Denmark.

How - in any way at all - did it help them to have the Maccobi fans chanting truly horrible hateful slogans in the streets, just inflaming matters?

You mean Amsterdam?

I meant what I said, it will have affected well beyond the City of Amsterdam, because of what happened in that city.

I just wondered about Denmark.Jews face antisemitism and hostility in every city but see what you mean.

I had been looking up the rise in anti-Semitism in Denmark as a whole and it struck me that it was likely the consequences would extend beyond Amsterdam.