Amsterdam attacks

MaizieD do you really think the general public consider number 1 in your definition list? If you hear the term 'holocaust denier' can you honestly say you don't think of someone who denies the extermination of 6 million Jews during WW2? Like it or not, for most of us holocaust is a word that will always specifically mean the historical extermination of European Jews.

I would see definition 1) and 3) as needing a lower case h at the front of the noun. I would reserve Holocaust with a capital H for definition 2). I think the word itself, small h, actually comes from the Bible.
However, in Hebrew, Jewish people have a different word for it. "Shoah" denotes a disaster or catastrophe.

I’m sorry if you feel insulted Maizie because I didn’t intend to offend you. Posters on News and Politics threads tend to be well informed, but we cannot make the mistake of thinking that everyone is knowledgeable. I have actually seen on live news reports, people being asked if they know about the Holocaust, and they don’t know anything about it, or claim to not know. I have also seen here, on GN, the assertion that the Holocaust was a long time ago and the inference being, it is no longer relevant. Nonetheless, it is the backdrop for much of what has happened in Israel ever since.

No one could watch the suffering of the innocent people in Gaza and not be shocked and upset. The suffering of the children is particularly distressing, and all parties need to move towards some sort of solution. This cannot go on indefinitely. Hamas and the Israeli government need to negotiate, and Iran and Hezbollah need to stop interfering.

Lily Ebert Holocaust Survivor who died last month said it was
so important that the Holocaust is spoken of, if it isn’t it will
be forgotten

I don't disagree with remembering the Holocaust and, just as important, the collective mindset which led to it.

However, this is a distraction from what happened in Amsterdam. It's ignoring the fact (and it is a fact) that Israeli football fans provoked the violence. In this case (and I stress - in this case) the Israelis were not innocent victims of something resembling 'Kristallnacht'.

Nobody needs racist football thugs to remind them of historical antisemitism. What they've done is prove that Jews aren't always innocent victims.

madalene

I’m sorry if you feel insulted Maizie because I didn’t intend to offend you. Posters on News and Politics threads tend to be well informed, but we cannot make the mistake of thinking that everyone is knowledgeable. I have actually seen on live news reports, people being asked if they know about the Holocaust, and they don’t know anything about it, or claim to not know. I have also seen here, on GN, the assertion that the Holocaust was a long time ago and the inference being, it is no longer relevant. Nonetheless, it is the backdrop for much of what has happened in Israel ever since.

No one could watch the suffering of the innocent people in Gaza and not be shocked and upset. The suffering of the children is particularly distressing, and all parties need to move towards some sort of solution. This cannot go on indefinitely. Hamas and the Israeli government need to negotiate, and Iran and Hezbollah need to stop interfering.

I haven't seen anybody claiming that the Holocaust is no longer relevant. I'd be amazed if any European hasn't heard of it. It's taught in schools as part of the National Curriculum and there are still people alive who remember it. However, it is apparently true that people outside Europe, who haven't studied European history, see it as no different from what happened in Cambodia, Rwanda and elsewhere. There are also, of course, contrarians who still deny it happened, but there aren't that many of them.

I wonder what the Israeli Maccabi Tel Aviv fans actually learnt in history.

It's ignoring the fact (and itisa fact) that Israeli football fans provoked the violence.
And it's ignoring the fact that Dutch pro Palestinian supporters were provocative too. We know that messages were being sent earlier in the week about going on a "Jodenjacht" - a Jewhunt. I believe the police have yet to put out their full report into the background, but tensions had already been running high in the days prior to the Maccabi fans' arrival in Amsterdam.

I was reading French newspapers today, and it seems French pro Palestinian supporters are being provocative now too. They have been told they are not allowed to display flags or placards at tomorrow's match at the Stade de France. Instead, they protested by decorating the FFF's headquarters in Paris with Palestinian flags and placards, with messages such as "No to the France-Israel match at Stade de France," "Champions League of Genocide". They even occupied the football federation's headquarters to protest.

escaped

^It's ignoring the fact (and itisa fact) that Israeli football fans provoked the violence^.
And it's ignoring the fact that Dutch pro Palestinian supporters were provocative too. We know that messages were being sent earlier in the week about going on a "Jodenjacht" - a Jewhunt. I believe the police have yet to put out their full report into the background, but tensions had already been running high in the days prior to the Maccabi fans' arrival in Amsterdam.

I disagree. The media generally reported the violence by the pro-Palestinians and framed it as an unprovoked attack on innocent Israeli fans - that's what I've been on about! If the complete timeline had been reported from the start, I wouldn't be objecting. Apparently, Sky had a factual account, which was taken down and replaced with a version which omitted the original Israeli fan provocation. Netanyahu compared it with Kristallnacht and other media picked up on that - it's nonsense. The Jews who were attacked during Kristallnacht had done nothing, but this time a group of them had done something and it this group the retaliatory violence targeted. Jewish property wasn't damaged, but Arab-owned property was.

escaped

I was reading French newspapers today, and it seems French pro Palestinian supporters are being provocative now too. They have been told they are not allowed to display flags or placards at tomorrow's match at the Stade de France. Instead, they protested by decorating the FFF's headquarters in Paris with Palestinian flags and placards, with messages such as "No to the France-Israel match at Stade de France," "Champions League of Genocide". They even occupied the football federation's headquarters to protest.

I assume you support Maccabi Tel Aviv's vile racism. You keep trying to distract from the issue.

growstuff

escaped

I was reading French newspapers today, and it seems French pro Palestinian supporters are being provocative now too. They have been told they are not allowed to display flags or placards at tomorrow's match at the Stade de France. Instead, they protested by decorating the FFF's headquarters in Paris with Palestinian flags and placards, with messages such as "No to the France-Israel match at Stade de France," "Champions League of Genocide". They even occupied the football federation's headquarters to protest.

I assume you support Maccabi Tel Aviv's vile racism. You keep trying to distract from the issue.

Looking forward to seeing how such events can be prevented or better contained in the future is certainly not distracting from the issue.
That is why France is deploying 4,000 police, plus 1,500 security personnel tomorrow at the match. France is the country in Europe with the highest number of Jewish citizens.

I assume you support Maccabi Tel Aviv's vile racism. That is quite some assumption! I deplore the disgusting chants of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans.

escaped

^I assume you support Maccabi Tel Aviv's vile racism^. That is quite some assumption! I deplore the disgusting chants of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans.

As do I.
But you’re right in that Dutch pro Palestinians were planning a Jew hunt before the Tel Aviv team even arrived.
It was all pre planned and the physical injuries to Jewish fans wasn’t merely a retaliation as growstuff likes to think but a case of violent thuggery by the Dutch/ Palestinians.
If it was a case of just some retaliation then it would have been chanting and a protest crowd.It was much more than that.

escaped

I was reading French newspapers today, and it seems French pro Palestinian supporters are being provocative now too. They have been told they are not allowed to display flags or placards at tomorrow's match at the Stade de France. Instead, they protested by decorating the FFF's headquarters in Paris with Palestinian flags and placards, with messages such as "No to the France-Israel match at Stade de France," "Champions League of Genocide". They even occupied the football federation's headquarters to protest.

The French pro Palestinians will do their best to disrupt things and maybe use violence so glad the French police are on top of it.

growstuff

Anniebach

I only watched a few seconds of the uTube link

In that case I suggest you watch and read more, in order to find out what actually happened in Amsterdam, so that you can give well-informed comments.

But your own comments are not well informed as you ignore the fact that the ‘Jew Hunt’ as the pro Palestinian cohort called it on SM was organised in advance.They knew the Israeli football fans were coming and they decided to be violent.

Indeed, Oreo.
BBC reports this evening that Dutch police have now made five more arrests in Amsterdam over the violence.
These are all men from the Netherlands and aged between 18 and 37. Obviously analysis of the attacks is still ongoing.

Oreo

growstuff

Anniebach

I only watched a few seconds of the uTube link

In that case I suggest you watch and read more, in order to find out what actually happened in Amsterdam, so that you can give well-informed comments.

But your own comments are not well informed as you ignore the fact that the ‘Jew Hunt’ as the pro Palestinian cohort called it on SM was organised in advance.They knew the Israeli football fans were coming and they decided to be violent.

I assume you have some evidence of that. If the Maccabi fans also knew, they were idiots to provoke them - analysis of the timeline shows that they were the first to provoke the violence. They have form for it. Presumably they knew what would happen, so why did they do it? Maybe so that they could be portrayed as victims. The truth is that they are at least as much to blame as the pro-Palestinians in Amsterdam.

Moreover, there is evidence that that the Maccabi fans were hoping for some kind of punch up in Istanbul, which is why Turkish authorities refused to host the Besiktas versus Maccabi match, so it has been moved to neutral Hungary. Even Hungary has decided not to welcome Maccabi fans, so the match will be played behind closed doors.

Oreo

growstuff

Anniebach

I only watched a few seconds of the uTube link

In that case I suggest you watch and read more, in order to find out what actually happened in Amsterdam, so that you can give well-informed comments.

But your own comments are not well informed as you ignore the fact that the ‘Jew Hunt’ as the pro Palestinian cohort called it on SM was organised in advance.They knew the Israeli football fans were coming and they decided to be violent.

My comments are very well informed.

Oreo

escaped

I was reading French newspapers today, and it seems French pro Palestinian supporters are being provocative now too. They have been told they are not allowed to display flags or placards at tomorrow's match at the Stade de France. Instead, they protested by decorating the FFF's headquarters in Paris with Palestinian flags and placards, with messages such as "No to the France-Israel match at Stade de France," "Champions League of Genocide". They even occupied the football federation's headquarters to protest.

The French pro Palestinians will do their best to disrupt things and maybe use violence so glad the French police are on top of it.

The Paris police managed to control the Olympics and I have faith that they know what they're doing.

Why assume growstuff that only your own comments are well informed, a strange attitude it seems to me.

The Turkish authorities moved the match to Hungary and it will be a closed match, but not cos the Israeli fans were ‘hoping for a punch up’ at all.Turkey is very much a Muslim country and didn’t want to risk the visiting fans being beaten or worse.
Hungary is very much a Christian country so there was a risk to fans there as well.

Oreo

Why assume growstuff that only your own comments are well informed, a strange attitude it seems to me.

I don't understand the attitude that my comments are deemed worthless and distracting, when several posters here have thanked me for my posts and careful research from various foreign sources? Plus my recent visit to the museums in the city, and a private tour guide on the subject! Hey-ho!

I also know there are a couple of knowledgeable GNs on WW2 in Europe and the Holocaust, but even their contributions are swept aside as being irrelevant because they don’t fit the required narrative.

Oreo

The Turkish authorities moved the match to Hungary and it will be a closed match, but not cos the Israeli fans were ‘hoping for a punch up’ at all.Turkey is very much a Muslim country and didn’t want to risk the visiting fans being beaten or worse.
Hungary is very much a Christian country so there was a risk to fans there as well.

Yes, interesting!
Every country will try to do what works best for them under the circumstances. As someone said earlier, the issue won't go away. Pro Palestinian supporters want the Maccabi Tel Aviv team completely banned from playing. That seems unfair, and this is why tighter controls at the matches are being introduced.

Thought about this quite a bit Escaped

I think that the Maccabi fans did arrive with the intention of inflaming an ongoing situation, and the end result was likely to make anti-semitism worse, not better

International sporting and similar events can be positive tho very difficult.

I don't think banning Maccabi is the way ahead at all,

but I do think that it should be made clear to the fans by their own club management and possibly Israeli authorities that any provoking attacks and chanting are out of order. When it comes down to mocking children who've died surely its obviously not OK?

If they are then attacked planned or otherwise then of course full force of the law upon those who do that.

If they carry on then I suspect more countries will say "not here" and that helps no one?

Wyllow if antisemitism is made worse it has to exist to be made worse,