‘Police treat classroom jibes as hate incidents’.

Allira

I agree, Doodledog

I'm surprised you would call a 9 year old evil, Caleo.

I knew of a 9 year old who threatened another child with a knife. It's no surprise that that child ended up in prison before he was out of his teens.

eazybee

Police should not be called into Primary schools to deal with bullying unless it involves threats of physical violence. I recall the police being involved only once when a difficult boy concealed a knife at school and threatened to use it on another child. His bag was searched in front of him, a kitchen knife was found, his father was called, and his response was that the Deputy Head had planted it. The community police officer arrived, and offered to escort the boy to the police station to have his fingerprints taken. The father retracted his accusation but continued to obstruct the school. The son was later arrested while attempting to break into a post office.

Part of the trouble when dealing with bullying is that both the accused and the accusers frequently have problems at home, often involving family conflicts, both perpetrators and victims sensing unhappiness in the other and a chance to take their unhappiness out on someone else.

I don't have the experience or expertise to know how to deal with children like that, but they exist. Somehow or other the cycle of family violence and criminality needs to be broken. I don't believe schools can (or should) deal with that.

theworriedwell

Allira

I agree, Doodledog

I'm surprised you would call a 9 year old evil, Caleo.

If they attempted to murder your child you just might.

This particular child did not, the child used an inappropriate word.
Is that evil or misguided?

growstuff

Allira

I agree, Doodledog

I'm surprised you would call a 9 year old evil, Caleo.

I knew of a 9 year old who threatened another child with a knife. It's no surprise that that child ended up in prison before he was out of his teens.

We weren't discussing that child.
Ecpven so, I would not describe a nine year old as^evil^.

The one you know clearly needs a great deal of help.

Allira

growstuff

Allira

I agree, Doodledog

I'm surprised you would call a 9 year old evil, Caleo.

I knew of a 9 year old who threatened another child with a knife. It's no surprise that that child ended up in prison before he was out of his teens.

We weren't discussing that child.
Ecpven so, I would not describe a nine year old as^evil^.

The one you know clearly needs a great deal of help.

How do you suggest that help is accessed without police involvement?

He's not the only one by any means and almost always that kind of incident starts with low level 'bullying', which isn't dealt with decisively enough.

I wouldn't use the word 'evil' either, but I suspect the words I would use would offend you even more.

Allira

theworriedwell

Allira

I agree, Doodledog

I'm surprised you would call a 9 year old evil, Caleo.

If they attempted to murder your child you just might.

This particular child did not, the child used an inappropriate word.
Is that evil or misguided?

It depends how often that child has used the word. If it was a 'one off', some kind of counselling or warning might be appropriate. However, if it's ongoing and involves more than one child, it's a lot more than 'misguided'.

One of the few good things my father taught me was how to land a good right hook. When my friends and I were bullied by a group of boys I broke the leader's nose. I made sure he hit me first so I could claim it was "self defence".

There was no counselling back then. Pick on the leader and humiliate them in front of their mates.

I was never bullied again.

We don't actually know about the 9 year old in the O/P. Allegations on the incident (I checked all the papers) gave no more info than we have already, so its impossible to say.

Is that not a saying? I feel I recognise it. It is a deed that is evil as is standing by and doing nothing. That is how I read that, I could of course be wrong

biglouis

One of the few good things my father taught me was how to land a good right hook. When my friends and I were bullied by a group of boys I broke the leader's nose. I made sure he hit me first so I could claim it was "self defence".

There was no counselling back then. Pick on the leader and humiliate them in front of their mates.

I was never bullied again.

That's because you were a bully too.

growstuff

biglouis

One of the few good things my father taught me was how to land a good right hook. When my friends and I were bullied by a group of boys I broke the leader's nose. I made sure he hit me first so I could claim it was "self defence".

There was no counselling back then. Pick on the leader and humiliate them in front of their mates.

I was never bullied again.

That's because you were a bully too.

Self-defence is not bullying.

There is a huge difference between a four year old using offensive language and a one year old (or a child of any age) threatening someone with a knife!

Any child who attacks another, verbally or physically, should be disciplined, but the approach should be proportionate. A small child using the wrong word is unlikely to be doing so with 'evil' intent, but a child coming to school armed is clearly troubled, and there has to be intervention to prevent actual harm.

If a group of children pick on a classmate (particularly if they are isolating them because of perceived difference) then of course it is more serious than suggested in the OP. I am not suggesting that terms like 'retard' are acceptable at all - they aren't. Adults have to make that clear, and a teacher should be able to read the situation, know the intention of the offender(s) and act accordingly, but as a one-off I can't see how it is a police matter. Taking items from others, or cyber bullying is a different matter, as is physical violence.

My granddaughter is 24 today but when she was in Secondary School she was bullied in and out of school by the same two boys and even though the police were involved on at least two occasions the school did nothing. One of them threw her over a chair in the school canteen in front of teacher and pupil witnesses and still they did nothing. I'm glad that nowadays the police are getting involved. Perhaps it will stop some of it.

I agree with you Doodledog about being 'proportionate' and context.

If a child calls another one a retard once, the child should be spoken to sternly and given a warning. Maybe the other child has special needs and those should be explained.

However, I know from experience that there are some children who go much further than that and sometimes from a very early age. Bullying behaviour needs to be nipped in the bud and the child might need monitoring.

For every bully, there are many more children who suffer if allowances are made for bullies and their behaviour dismissed as trivial.

Bullying is one of the reasons some parents withdraw their children from a particular school and even pay for private education. Some parents can't afford to do that, so their children have to suffer from antisocial behaviour. If the school and parents can't change the behaviour, maybe a complete change in the bully's environment is needed.

We don't know whether the 'retard' name calling was a one-off.

Good post Doodledog.
There is no need to bring in the heavy hand of the law for a bit of name calling, especially at 9 years old. An accomplished teacher should be able to deal with the culprit, or if not, refer to a member of staff with expertise and firm, but calm disciplining skills.
I think the police have an important role to play in the education of young children. They can add a voice of authority about messages relating to behaviour and consequences. They can explain about respect and safety, as well as prepare children with coping strategies for adult life. Their involvement in schools should be seen as a partnership with teachers and parents, not as a force waiting to put the boot in.
It would be very unusual to come across a 9 year old child who is dangerously evil, but I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I hope a disproportionate amount if time would not be spent on this issue.

My youngest child was bullied in primary school, once I realized what was causing the trouble I went to school immediately and spoke to the head teacher. The culprit was a called into the head teachers study and given a real telling off , my child said he came out crying ! The bullying stopped that day and never recurred.
Teachers are now powerless to discipline children by giving them the hard word . Involving the police should not be necessary. Having said that bullying is devastating for the victim and can have life changing consequences! It must be stopped. Unfortunately many parents are incapable of believing their child is a bully and instead of backing the school they defend their child ! If any of my children had been a bullies not only would I appreciate the schools intervention my children would be in no doubt whatsoever that we as parents were ashamed and extremely disappointed in them . Children are not given sufficient boundaries that enable them to develop into well balanced adults. I recognize that a child who is a bully may have their own issues they are dealing with and they too need help. However the priority is to stop the bullying behaviour asap !!!!!

Maybe that Head needed just the sort of information you were able to provide her with Shelflife to take the culprit to task. I'm pleased for you it was sorted.

Shelflife Of course teachers can use a 'hard word', if that's what is needed.

Allira

theworriedwell

Allira

I agree, Doodledog

I'm surprised you would call a 9 year old evil, Caleo.

If they attempted to murder your child you just might.

This particular child did not, the child used an inappropriate word.
Is that evil or misguided?

The pair of kids I'm talking about started off with the inappropriate word. I have no problem saying they were evil.

The mildest teacher I knew was brilliant at talking to the naughty children. They never raised their voice, though the children knew they were capable of doing so. Coming down hard isn't always the way forward.
This member of staff went on to work alongside one of the Jamie Bulger murderers in their rehabilitation.

eazybee

Police should not be called into Primary schools to deal with bullying unless it involves threats of physical violence. I recall the police being involved only once when a difficult boy concealed a knife at school and threatened to use it on another child. His bag was searched in front of him, a kitchen knife was found, his father was called, and his response was that the Deputy Head had planted it. The community police officer arrived, and offered to escort the boy to the police station to have his fingerprints taken. The father retracted his accusation but continued to obstruct the school. The son was later arrested while attempting to break into a post office.

Part of the trouble when dealing with bullying is that both the accused and the accusers frequently have problems at home, often involving family conflicts, both perpetrators and victims sensing unhappiness in the other and a chance to take their unhappiness out on someone else.

Ah .yes victim blaming, always a useful one. My DD had no problems at home, she was a happy outgoing child although the bullies soon changed that

Oops I missed page 2 here somehow.
How old was your daughter theworriedwell?

escaped

Oops I missed page 2 here somehow.
How old was your daughter theworriedwell?

Started just before her 9th birthday and went on till she was 11. Fortunately her secondary school stopped it very quickly, the primary school were worse than useless. Particularly the incident when she was attacked in what could have been a serious incident with death as a possibility. Her teacher, who knew the history well, watched it happen and she said she thought they were just playing but a parent witnessed it and intervened. The teacher cried when we had a meeting with the Head about it. They couldn't keep pretending it wasn't happening and the Head apologised. Bit late as they were leaving primary school the following week.

All we heard for over two and a half years was, "you have to understand these girls have problems." "you have to see these girls are unhappy."

There has been a change in parents' attitudes to their children's behaviour since I was a child. When I was at junior school in the fifties, if a teacher told us off our parents usually accepted that we had done something to earn the reprimand from school.

Nowadays (and it has been like this for a while) parents invariably believe whatever their child tells them and immediately rush off to the school to complain. here is no doubt that some children will lie to their parents. I remember one day whilst I was in my garden a stone went through the first floor window of the house next door. It can only have come from the garden at the back of that house. I told the occupants of the flat and they went to speak to the parents. I then had a visit from the father, with his son, who told me that his son denied throwing the stone. My response was "well he would, wouldn't he".

Can any of us deny having uttered the occasional white lie, or blaming someone or something (dog or cat) else?