Will the Supreme Court protect Women's Rights?

Syracute

Are women here on GN really scared about trans women who look , dress and act like women in the bathrooms really ? You won’t in most cases even know . This is a tiny, tiny amount of the population and many no longer have their Adam’s apple nor their penis . When did the world become so ugly ?

Are women here on GN really scared about trans women who look , dress and act like women in the bathrooms really ?

No, I don't really think they are.

What we are 'scared' of is being compelled, legally, to indulge the fantasy of biological males who believe their feelings about their identity overrides - trumps - the reality of biological sex.

I don't think we are concerned particularly about how they look, or how they dress; we are concerned about the principle which is that chromosomes are the fundamental components of DNA, determined at conception, and cannot be altered in any way that would change underling genetic makeup.

A man can indulge his feelings about his identity to any extent he likes - in any way that will make him content with himself, but he cannot become a woman, not even if he has his penis surgically reconstructed.

It's not about how he acts, or how he dresses. Because identity is about feelings, not fact.

Politics Nerd - not quite as simple as you suggest.
Lia Thomas, the American transgender swimmer has male genitalia. S/he uses the female changing rooms when competing. The female competitors complained they were uncomfortable with Thomas being naked (ie exposing himself) . Additionally, the young women complained he looked at their naked bodies in a way that made them uncomfortable.

Sorry but being lectured on respect by people throwing around the words far right, etc is hilarious.

Smileless2012

It isn't simply a matter of ensuring spaces are safe for everyone, it's about ensuring that any spaces that are for one of the two sexes, remain only for people of that sex.

Of course the trans community have a right to have access to spaces where they feel safe, but they don't have the right to access designated spaces which are for those of the opposite sex.

Good post Smileless2012

There have been mentions on here for example of visible gender neutral toilet areas with lockable doors, presumably with floor to ceiling walls to stop upskirting.

That would serve its purpose, though I wonder if men would be any happier having to queue for longer or having to raise/lower the seat. Or whether they would resent the fact that other men have caused the problem meaning they need to do so.
Men who are used to using a urinal involving no touching of flushing mechanisms, might suddenly realise that handling a toilet flush that others have touched is less appealing.
Let’s hope all new toilets are equipped with the no touch flushes.

And remember in many ways toilets are a tiny part of it. Prisons, sport, crime statistics, etc if described as segregated by sex, they must be single sex or we take legal action with regard to the institutions that ignore the ruling.

eazybee

No, women are not scared of the people Syracute describes. They rightly fear the influence of people like Dr Beth Watson, 'Rose' who has caused considerable distress to the Darlington nurses, the prisoner who verbally abused the nurse who correctly described him as a man while describing his urinary infection; the pupils who had teachers suspended for using correct pronouns but not of their choice, the students and academics who drove Kathleen Stock out of her university post, the people who wrote leaflets referring to 'chest -feeders, 'birth delivers' and people who menstruate; Alison Rose who de-banked customers whose views she disapproved of, men competing against women in single sex sport, the many CEOs who endorsed the views of the transgender movement and penalised those who did not agree. Finally all the politicians apparently unable to define a woman.

eazybee I would add to your list the young man who pretended that he was trans when he went into a dress shop with a male friend and got an assistant sacked when he insisted that he try on a dress in the crowded open changing room. When she told him that there was no room for them and no cubicles empty, and to come back later, he went into a strop about his rights. Turned out they were "just having a laugh". Given the fondness of some people for enjoying a laugh at other people's expense, I could imagine a vogue for that kind of fun being suggested - while women had no legal power either to ask to see a certificate of gender transfer or to turf the jokesters out on their ears.

I’m very happy for trans people to have their own designated spaces, toilets, changing rooms, prisons, hospital accommodation, whatever. I’m happy for them to have their own designated categories in sport, literature, the arts, to have a designated quota in situations where quotas are applied.

I absolutely believe they should be able to live their lives free of threat and discrimination.

In short I’m happy for them to have equality and respect.

Now why are they not happy for me, as a woman, to have those things?

I

Lathyrus3

I’m very happy for trans people to have their own designated spaces, toilets, changing rooms, prisons, hospital accommodation, whatever. I’m happy for them to have their own designated categories in sport, literature, the arts, to have a designated quota in situations where quotas are applied.

I absolutely believe they should be able to live their lives free of threat and discrimination.

In short I’m happy for them to have equality and respect.

Now why are they not happy for me, as a woman, to have those things?

I

My thoughts exactly and you put it very well.

Well said Lathyrus3.

I wish somebody super clever could explain the difference to me between a transwoman's penis being on view in a women's changing room and my husband's penis being on view in the same women's changing room. He'd only be getting changed just the same, he'd have no criminal intent.

There are some excellent, articulate and intelligent posts on this thread; special thanks to Terribull Galaxyand Dickens. And thanks to Syracute for making me laugh; it's been a long time since I saw a post that so spectacularly demonstrated how some people have completely misunderstood the events of the last 20 years and had to end up in the Supreme Court to be resolved!

I saw a really good post on MN last night that summed up the issue of privacy. The poster said that she knew that her brother, father in law and brother in law were perfectly kind, gentle and safe men to be alone with. But she wouldn't want to take her clothes off or be in a vulnerable state of undress in front of them.

ViceVersa

I do treat people with respect, and I assure you that I am far from ignorant on the law. I am certainly not making untruthful generalisations or trying to score points. I could cite numerous examples to back up what I have said - that information is widely available to anyone who cares to do their research.

So why are you querying the law as different in each case with "then that's somehow ok?" without pointing out, as you now tell us you know, that the law is exactly the same in both cases?

Is the way you suggested the person you attack might look treating all people with respect?

There have been some very good and thoughtful posts trying to deal with this very difficult issue but there have also been many that are not.

Nor, I imagine, would she want them undressed in front of her.

Precisely grumppa

What I would very much like to see now is that there is protection for the trans community, and their needs and culture are met framed within the law.

We don’t want to go backwards.

Iam64

Politics Nerd - not quite as simple as you suggest.
Lia Thomas, the American transgender swimmer has male genitalia. S/he uses the female changing rooms when competing. The female competitors complained they were uncomfortable with Thomas being naked (ie exposing himself) . Additionally, the young women complained he looked at their naked bodies in a way that made them uncomfortable.

Thank you Iam.

However, this is really just a deflection as Viceversa was not referring to this situation but a hypothetical one, which appeared to be in the UK. She described a "gym changing room" with "mothers or grandmothers", "daughters or granddaughters". So it is simply a case of applying an existing law.

I am not sure what you mean. How can their culture be framed within the law. I don't think there is a singular culture?

They've got the same protection now as they ever had. Anti-discrimination measures protecting transgender people have existed in the UK since 1999, and were strengthened in the 2000s to include anti-harassment wording. Gender reassignment was included as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act 2010.
It's important to note that transgender people are still protected by the Equality Act. The protected characteristic of gender reassignment is not affected by this ruling, and Lord Hodge stressed there are other protections against direct and indirect discrimination and harassment

Nothing has changed.

This is true women have had to fight for an existing law to be clarified, that is what has happened.

It's important to acknowledge that no rights have been stripped from transpeople, their protections are the same as everybody else including the protections afforded to any sex based rights in accordance with their biological sex. It really shouldn't be necessary to keep describing sex as biological, sex has always been a biological category. All that has happened is it won't be so easy to totally ignore and abuse the sex based rights of women. Institutions will now have to observe the actual law not Stonewall law which too many fell prey to.

Oh dear, more uncalled for comments. Does that have to be resorted to just because someone states they work in a medical field? Of course doctors are of different opinions and levels of education depending on their field. Some of them get things terribly wrong, Andrew Wakefield as an example, by letting their opinions get the better of them. However many doctors are very open minded to the scientific reasons for gender dysphoria and treat their patients with respect, as do I. I would rather quickly be out of a job were I to tell a patient they were actually a man and were somehow making up everything they have been going through since they were a small child. I count myself a patient person but some of these comments show an astounding lack of empathy.

Who said they were "somehow making it up" Luminance* ? They probably really believe that they can change their sex and actually become a woman, and that is why they are so upset if anyone doesn't agree with that. If you are working in a medical setting you are aware of that possibility.

If earlier days, people who really believed that they were Queen Elizabeth the First, or Genghis Kahn, were incarcerated in mental institutions for it and mocked.

It is a hate crime now to mock people for wanting to live as women, but it is NOT a crime to believe and say that you do not, yourself, believe that they have actually changed their sex, only their gender - their concept of the sex they want to live as.

I suppose ‘my truth’ is validation enough to whoever speaks it.

Just maybe not for others to hear.

I was refering to earlier comments I now need to scroll back to read. Also my username was just sitting there on my face cream. I didn't choose it based on any other factor. I became rather frustrated at finding one that wasn't taken and that one simply worked.