Grooming gangs in London

I think that Allira and many of us are right to want to stay on topic about the terrible abuse of youngsters by grooming gangs.

Oreo I agree these were children who were let down by the very people who should have been taking care of them.

I do not want any other child to suffer like these.

I do not want a wish washy statement of lessons have been learnt

Or a wishy washy diluting of the enquiry either GG13👍🏻

It’s bad enough growing up ‘in care’ without a loving family isn’t it? Children whose parents have died or are in prison suddenly find themselves adrift in an institution, which however pleasant ( and we can’t assume they all are) are not home.Also the poor kids who’ve never known love dragged up in abusive or neglected homes by chaotic parents.
These kids, by the time they’re teenagers are angry and vulnerable, appearing tough but in reality seeking love and attention.
Then come the men in taxis….

I’m increasingly convinced this inquiry needs to focus on its original remit, to investigate the abuse of children by organised groups of men who were of largely Muslim, Pakistani heritage. Some were related to each other, cousins and brothers. The involved young men/boys from their families,ies or communities. Their told was to become a boyfriend then introduce their victim to the group.

The way girls were sometimes prosecuted, like the drunk 11 and 12 year olds gg13 mentions, or the girl portrayed in the three girls drama. She became a S1 offender because the gang got her to introduce friends to them. This meant she wasn’t allowed to participate in the trial of her abusers. As a ‘sex offender’ her evidence would be rubbished. Just like Virgnis Guiffre

As well as this inquiry focussing on this particular form of organised sex offending, I’d hope links between this kind of offending outside the family and similsr within families or communities needs examining

I don't know how the quantum leap of wanting to stick to the point, the point in the subject under scrutiny being grooming and abuse committed by one ethnicity, in these particular cases, could be conflated with the lynching of black men. No one is above the law, priests and clerics have hidden behind a cloak of being untouchable for decades and just look at the damage they wrought on their victims. Somehow I don't think the voices that are opposed to demonising one particular ethnicity, would throw their hands up in horror at the criticism of priests and how the church tried to cover all that up. Of course there are some bad people in every community, uncomfortable as it may be, it has to be faced head on.

I think this thread shows in a microcosm exactly how the inquiry has fallen into complete disarray.

On here almost every tactic, including discrediting the whistleblowers and even the victims, has been employed in an attempt to render it a pointless exercise.

These may relate to personal views of how cases of abuse should be handled or they may be part of something wider.

It is a revelation either way.

Lathryus I agree that this thread demonstrates the conflicting ideas, strongly held and often influenced by personal experience, creates an environment where objective reflection is hindered

Oreo

Rosie51

Abuse of children by adults is quite different to abuse of adults by other adults. I'm amazed that anyone doesn't recognise the power imbalance at the starting point. Adult abuse of other adults is reprehensible, but adult abuse of children is on another level beyond the pale. In my opinion, other opinions are available.

Totally agree.
All the deflections on here about different types of abuse just muddy the waters really, as it’s just a thread on a forum that’s not important but it becomes very important if those in positions of some power try and muddy the waters around the grooming gangs by widening the remit of the enquiry to include different patterns of abuse.
The ethnicity and religion of the gangs is of prime importance as it was because of them that the authorities turned a blind eye and in some cases colluded with these vile men, instead of building a case against them.

That last point is valid and, of course, why there has been so much pressure from certain quarters for an inquiry. "Grooming gangs" has become a synonym for "Asian grooming gangs*.

I've been thinking about the issue quite a lot over the last couple of days.

There is a case for examining all sexual abuse, especially of children, but that's a massive undertaking. It's been the subject of many books and articles over the past few decades. There's a place for it because attitudes have changed, even in our lifetimes and will hopefully change more in the future.

Baroness Jay's report, which took 7 years, studied child sexual abuse and exploitation in general. It was published in 2022(?). There were 20 recommendations, but I understand that to date only one has been implemented. It would be a massive waste of money to set up a new inquiry with the same remit. What's needed now is for the original recommendations to be actioned.

This new inquiry should be different. The question of ethnicity has been raised and is not going to go away. The scope of the new inquiry hasn't been decided (that's what the current disagreements are about), but it definitely should address the specific circumstances of the CSE cases within a certain parameter. It needs to limit its scope, if it's going to have any effect. What that effect will be is still to be decided. I suspect the survivors themselves prioritise bringing those responsible for the abuse and covering up to justice, but that's going to need criminal trials. The inquiry can provide evidence for the trials - incidentally, that's why a judge is the wrong person to lead the inquiry at this stage.

The second effect of the inquiry must be to prevent exploitation and abuse from happening in the future (as far as possible). Therefore, the inquiry must examine in detail and honesty what it is about the religion and/or ethnicity of certain groups which appears to make gang abuse more prevalent (having established that it is true). It's the only way to shut down the toxic weaponising of child abuse by the racist far right.

PS. I think some posters have been particularly mean to Wyllow. It must be obvious that she's upset about the abuse she's suffered and doesn't deserve harsh words. This thread probably isn't the right place for her to post about her experiences and I disagree with her views about the scope of the inquiries, but there's no need to be mean. I would have hoped GN would be better than that.

Lathyrus3

I think this thread shows in a microcosm exactly how the inquiry has fallen into complete disarray.

On here almost every tactic, including discrediting the whistleblowers and even the victims, has been employed in an attempt to render it a pointless exercise.

These may relate to personal views of how cases of abuse should be handled or they may be part of something wider.

It is a revelation either way.

To be honest, I was thinking that anybody who has ever been a secondary school teacher will be familiar with the scenario in the first term of Year 7.

Unfortunately, it seems that the panel of survivors has fallen out. It would be patronising to think of them squabbling like Year 7s I have known, but it really is tempting. I hope Baroness Casey does step in here because she has experience of knocking heads together.

By the way Lathyrus if you think I'm trying to discredit the whistle blowers by pointing out the problems in the Maggie Oliver Foundation, you're wrong.

I have never discredited what MO has said, but it is true that some of the survivors who have had personal experience of her organisation are not so glowing with admiration as some people on here. It is also true that a former senior employee has been charged with leaking information. It is alleged that MO knew but covered up. While that's going on in the background, she really must not be appointed to chair an inquiry, where child protection is at the core.

Yup. That’s what I mean about attempts to discredit the victims.

I was so shocked when you did it before, calling them “almost paranoid” that I didn’t respond to that post. But here it is again.

I really thought that the time when people thought victims were responsible for the rape was past.

Of all the derailing tactics, turning the victims of these Asian grooming gangs into silly little schoolgirls having a squabble has to be the worst.

Unspeakable. Unbelievable.

Except, like the rapes, here it is,

Galaxy

I just laugh out loud when people try to shout racist, it has zero impact on me whatsoever. I will continue to talk about this specific issue and if you want to imply that somehow links me to lynching of black men, crack on.

It seems to me that people who could have taken action, but didn't, were being racist. It seems that they were bigoted enough to think that Asian men are abusers and working class girls with troubled backgrounds are slags, who would do anything for drugs, alcohol and a few trinkets - so just let them get on with it.

That kind of attitude prevailed for centuries. Just let the lower orders get on with their disgusting habits, so long as they're kept separate from those with higher morals. Then came along the "do gooders" (woke?), who wanted to save their souls, but were derided by their peers and some of those whom they were trying to save. (Read Charles Dickens.)

It's not racist to point out real issues, if they are supported by facts. It would be racist to assume that this group of criminals represents everybody within a certain demographic.

Lathyrus3

Of all the derailing tactics, turning the victims of these Asian grooming gangs into silly little schoolgirls having a squabble has to be the worst.

Unspeakable. Unbelievable.

Except, like the rapes, here it is,

Yes, I know, which is why I acknowledged that I felt bad about doing it, but I'm afraid that's how these differences are coming across. I knew that people like you would attack me for being honest about how the differences appear.

Lathyrus Take a step back and think it through rationally.

As other posters have said here it’s not just the rapists and abusers who should/ have been brought to justice but the authorities who have let these girls down so badly and in some cases been part of the problem.
So you can see why some of the victims have resigned
Sadly going by previous enquiries Hillsborough the Post Offce etc this never seem to be the case.

growstuff the panel seems to have fallen out in part because at least one panel member who suffered at the hands of the grooming gangs also suffered other sexual abuse from non gang members and would like the inquiry widened to include all abuse. I've said all along I think that would be a mistake. Nobody would deny that more needs to be done to address all sexual abuse but the wider the remit of any inquiry the more diluted the conclusions and the longer it will take. This inquiry has been sparked because authorities not only 'turned a blind eye' to the abuse because of the ethnicity of these gangs, they went so far as to criminalise some of the victims, and this needs to fully and exclusively addressed.

Rosie51 I understand the issues and I understand what they're saying. However, we now have a situation where one group is calling for the sacking of Jess Phillips and another group is saying that it will resign if Jess doesn't stay. There's an impasse. What's the solution? There are going to have to be compromises and proper, calm discussions.

If there are no compromises and survivors stick to their guns with lawyers involved (to earn their fees), the inquiry won't go ahead, so all the survivors will lose out (and the lawyers will still get their fees). How exactly does that help?

tinaf1

As other posters have said here it’s not just the rapists and abusers who should/ have been brought to justice but the authorities who have let these girls down so badly and in some cases been part of the problem.
So you can see why some of the victims have resigned
Sadly going by previous enquiries Hillsborough the Post Offce etc this never seem to be the case.

No, I'm afraid I don't see why they've resigned. Of course some in authority should be brought to justice as well as the abusers. What's happened to prevent that happening?

Just wondering whether there's anybody reading this thread who has had professional experience of dealing with children who have been sexually abused and exploited and would be prepared to discuss how the abuse affects the abused emotionally and behaviourally.

Who will be the biggest beneficiaries if the inquiry fails to get off the ground? Those in authority who were either callously indifferent to the victims or too afraid of being labeled racist, so happily sold the victims down the river. That's police, social workers and the courts who thought it appropriate to blame girls for being raped.

growstuff

Just wondering whether there's anybody reading this thread who has had professional experience of dealing with children who have been sexually abused and exploited and would be prepared to discuss how the abuse affects the abused emotionally and behaviourally.

Oh yes. Much experience.

And also with the perpetrators who try in every way to minimise the damage they have done and the sheer inhumanity of their crimes.

And most perplexing, those who, whilst not committing the crime, seek to exonerate the criminals and blame the victim.

Lathyrus3

growstuff

Just wondering whether there's anybody reading this thread who has had professional experience of dealing with children who have been sexually abused and exploited and would be prepared to discuss how the abuse affects the abused emotionally and behaviourally.

Oh yes. Much experience.

And also with the perpetrators who try in every way to minimise the damage they have done and the sheer inhumanity of their crimes.

And most perplexing, those who, whilst not committing the crime, seek to exonerate the criminals and blame the victim.

OK! So if you have practical experience of dealing with victims, what's your solution for breaking the impasse? You must know as well as I do that victims of trauma need to be shown compassion but don't always make decisions in their own best interests. If they were abused as children or young teenagers, they sometimes shut down the normal processes which young people develop as they mature. That's really not surprising and is nothing to do with blame. I had the feeling from listening to Jim Gamble that he understands that.

So what's your solution to the impasse?

Who's exonerating the criminals? Nobody on this thread and I haven't seen anybody trying to do that elsewhere. Please could we stick to facts.