'B' has divided the country, but families too ...

No, these are not just people who would be squabbling anyway. Brexit isnt like voting for different main parties in a GA. Its PERSONAL because it will separate spouses and children, end careers etc. Its not an "agree to disagree" situation if your nearest and dearest express disregard or even contempt for you and your spouce, children, career and life plans

It brought opinions to the fore that wouldnt previously necessarily been expressed.

Its not petty bickering

you are showing massive ignorance of the real consequences of Brexit for some British expats living in EU- you really do.
No, I am not.

You are showing extreme rudeness, though, jura

It's a very sad thing if families become divided and fall out over these issues. I know some family members, and friends, too, voted differently to me, but it's a free country and they are entitled to their view. Whether I agree with those views or not is neither here nor there for me. I am certain, though, that I'm not going to let it come between us, as I love them too much.

I think its hard to reconcile how peoples extended families can care about them if they voted to have their family ripped apart though...

Which is the situation mixed nationality families are facing. How can they not be upset that people they thought cared about them voted to put them in that position?

notana2- exactly- and pointing it out is not rude at all. Anyone who does not understand at all, or have any simpathy for - the tragic situations B puts them in- shows ignorance of the subject, and a total lack of empathy too.

Just read the sad post about one of us being so upset about family moving to NZ. And how I feel for her.

And it made me think of this context too. Previously, any parent whose family moved to the EU could come and go for visits as they pleased, and be covered for emergency health care too. And if at some stage they decided to move to be near them, that would be no issue. As EU citizens, they would have been able to do so, have pensions paid into that EU country and protected, join the health system and have their healthcare garanteed by the UK on a reciprocal agreement basis. Post Brexit and No Deal, that will be no longer possible. So those parents who show no empathy for the situation B throws their family in- are likely to be severely affected themselves at some point.

Its PERSONAL because it will separate spouses and children, end careers etc. Its not an "agree to disagree" situation if your nearest and dearest express disregard or even contempt for you and your spouce, children, career and life plans

In all the apocalyptic prophecies about Brexit, I have heard nobody suggest that it would split marriages and end careers. Nor can I imagine people's 'nearest and dearest' disregarding or showing contempt for their parents over Brexit, if that disregard and contempt wasn't already present, though hidden.

DDiL and I recently found ourselves on either side on another very contentious issue, with DDiL being very emotional about it. Immediately I realised this I stopped the conversation and we gave each other a big hug and agreed we would put the issue to one side as both of us felt so strongly on the issue that discussion would be pointless, neither would convince the other to change. We both respect each others views even if we do not agree. That is how most families work.

On Brexit, there is no argument. We all voted Remain, but even here DD considered long and hard about it and was, for some time going to vote for Brexit, although she did not in the end, none of us did anything to persuade her, we respected her real doubts about the EU, although we were glad when she did decide to support Remain.

but the other stuff that spilled over from it all, including racism, prejudice and total lack of empathy

Jura, that argument really doesn't hold water.

You like many other Remainers feel Leavers are racist. I can have a discussion about Brexit which is not about racism or people from European countries "coming here". That's because I am not racist. Those who are racist were racist long before the notion of Brexit was conceived. Sadly some people hold obnoxious views. They did back in the 1950s too, if I remember rightly....

I can discuss Brexit with family members who want to Remain and the prejudice that comes (always) from holding opposing views in an argument, doesn't cause fallings out or any permanent friction. Perhaps it does in your world?

I can empathise with those who feel differently from me. I have raised my children up to appreciate we will meet people who hold views different from our own, and they can decide if they are valid or not by listening. My lack of empathy for the Remain argument does not mean I feel coldness towards or despise those with different opinions.We are all entitled to our opinions.

I really cannot relate to this narrow view that Brexit equals a country and its inhabitants split into two groups of angry people who are prejudiced, cold and bitter.

I think you are mistaking internet opinion sites like this for real life. We can type our arguments but much is lost in the written word quite often. Not only that, the angry keyboard warriors are rarely as angry or as spiteful and unkind as they appear in words. Divorce them from their keyboards and I'd challenge any of them to call me a 'coffin dodger" to my face.

I do think the argument that the country is split into bitter, warring factions is hyped up by Project Fear types, determined to make the Brexit dilemma seem much bigger than it really is.

People are going about their daily lives and not consumed with politics. If anything, most people on both sides are tired of the whole thing being dragged out and now do no more than mutter "For goodness sake, just get on with it and bloody well leave!"

Sorry, for 'country' read land-mass, or islands, or our united kingdom. I have relatives in Wales, Scotland and N Ireland and see us all as living in the same place, although I know full well we are not and we all tend to cherish our place of birth. (And rightly so.)

Which is the situation mixed nationality families are facing.
Interesting, isn't it, that no-one ever seems to have been concerned about mixed nationality families which have been split because of our membership of the EU - ie changes to the rules for those allowed into this country from the Commonwealth of whom there must be millions, in favour of those from the EU.

I think that is how the majority of families function M0nica

Day6
I really cannot relate to this narrow view that Brexit equals a country and its inhabitants split into two groups of angry people who are prejudiced, cold and bitter.
Me neither

I think you are mistaking internet opinion sites like this for real life
That could be true, sadly

'Interesting, isn't it, that no-one ever seems to have been concerned about mixed nationality families which have been split because of our membership of the EU - ie changes to the rules for those allowed into this country from the Commonwealth of whom there must be millions, in favour of those from the EU.' Interesting, also that I don't remember people on this forum bemoaning the fact that that was happening [until now....].

Oh, and I've just read something incredibly sad on facebook about a family estrangement [I can't go into detail as it's a closed page]. But that's me being incredibly stupid by mistaking an internet site for the real world. Silly me. Thought real people frequented the internet Duuh

^ Interesting, also that I don't remember people on this forum bemoaning the fact that that was happening [until now....]^
Oh yes this has been discussed before now on other threads
Perhaps you missed them Labaik

Was that prior to the referendum, though?

notanan Brits have paid into the system these illegals have not, and evenBrits are having problems these days getting any help with this universal credit lark
Noit particularly talking about welfare,its shortage of housing, Drs oversubscribed to, cant get appointments because the population is growing anyway .without extra people who have not paid in to the health service, and get medical care,
Lots of reasons really,
Not many immigrants here anyway, but there are a few [up to now]recently come in and got houses more or less straight away, while others who have always lived here or for a very long time cant get houses but have to bid for properties

Was that prior to the referendum, though?
Before and after, I think (the threads)

That is sad indeed, Jura!

My late parents who were born at the end of the nineteenth century supported the old League of Nations, were patriots, and would surely have wanted " the Old Country" to be a part of Europe. Every living member of my entire family, and every one of our friendship group including old friends from school days abhors Brexit and its rising tide of nationalism.

I think that the elderly who did vote to leave were not old enough to remember the fascists who began the War.

varian

You often post :-

' I have never, ever, heard anyone suggest that all leave voters were racist. That is a slur bandied about by the liars of the leave campaign.'
----

For the 3 years there are ' some' posters who have called Leave voters not only 'racist' they call them far right, xenophobic, thick, uneducated, Brexshitters, bigots, etc.

For 3 years posters have denied this happens, for 3 years others have made a point of challenging those posters who use the aforementioned terms. Perversely the deniers often have used those descriptions themselves.

Even on this thread where you declare ' I have never, ever, heard anyone suggest that all leave voters were racist.' there is an obvious link to Leavers being racist. I think even your own post on this thread indicates your willingness to associate some Leavers with being ' racist' and just by saying not ALL leavers are racist is obviously saying although I believe many are.

It's never ending and goes full circle thread after thread after thread.

Good lord it is so easy to see this by looking over the copious amounts of Brexit related threads after the result of the EU Refendum was announced the rhetoric has been full of hate, verbal abuse and turned Gransnet into a divided Forum so I can see how friends and family have suffered the same so no surprise really.

However the difference is Gransnet is not friends and family, it is what it is, you can cut yourself off from Gransnet but to do the same with friends and family, especially family takes things to a different level.

I wonder what it says about the relationship in the first place if you can deny contact with your family and simply not just agree to holding totally different opinions and NOT speaking about Brexit. Very sad.

Not everybody has £50 spare and I assume that was per/adult. The other point is why should people who have been here for 10/15years paid taxes and national insurance have to pay to not have their family uprooted because of a decision their neighbours made.

Not only do these people not remember the fascists and the reasons why the world wars happened.

They also seem to think they fought and suffered in the world wars and have the “Dunkirk spirit”

total lack of empathy
That would probably come from both parents and children to cause such a rift.
And I would again ask the question "what kind of families were these before the referendum? There cannot have been much love or empathy or respect between the generations beforehand for such a rift to happen".

I have relatives who voted leave and are not by any stretch of the imagination racist. It was rather a case of disliking aspects of the EU - particularly waste of money/corruption, and fears that it will never reform, since MEP turkeys are unlikely ever to vote for Christmas.

I really hate the implication that all Leave voters are racist. It's all too often IMO a lazy and convenient stance adopted by Remain voters who like to fancy themselves morally superior - and I might add that I voted Remain, as did dh.

these people
Which people, Momof3?

What is this £50 you mention?
If the cost for EU Nationals to be allowed settled status in the UK, then it was £65 but has now been scrapped.
The EU needs to provide more clarity on a reciprocal arrangement.