Who is God?

If anyone's interested, they might like to read 'Godless Morality' by Richard Holloway who used to be Bishop of Edinburgh but has since become a well known humanist writer and broadcaster.

Very well said Mishap

No chance Greatnan.

Alison great post.

Bags. I think the person in the Thai jail found God in spite of the miserable situation she was in.

Geddit?

AlisoMA, why would your friend NOT look on her Downs Syndrome children as blessings? And why did you think they were 'lovely people'?

I would love to see any post where one of us claimed to be clever. We might have said we are still able to be moral beings in spite of being atheists, but that is in response to some of the stupid questions we get asked about the source of our morality.
Alison - you seem to throw around an awful lot of accusations - could you give us some examples so we can judge for outselves?

Marelli, there often is something rather special about downs people, especially the girls (I have found). Very kind and affectionate. No 'guile' about them.

There is no point in not calling a spade a spade you know. That helps no one.

We ALL suffer - those of faith and those of none; and many do so in silence - again those of faith and those of none.
Whatever our personal beliefs we are all part of the human condition with its joys and suffering.

I cannot say that I have noticed people on here saying what good things they do - they say that they wish to strive towards behaving well, whatever their faith or lack thereof. The aspiration to do good seems to be a common human trait thankfully. Sometimes we succeed, and sometimes we do not.

Can I just gently say that I am not sure these threads about religion get us very far. I suspect that we have reached an age where most of us are fairly fixed in our beliefs and constantly going over the same ground only seems to cause people to get cross or upset. I am all for healthy debate, but there are so many things going on in the world that we could be discussing.

gramps@ "remember that we should always respect another persons beliefs, even if you don't agree with them!"

No. One can, and should, respect a person, but there is no reason to respect their beliefs.

What if the other person was Anders Breivik, or Ian Brady, say -- would you want to respect their beliefs?

Unsupported beliefs are not worthy of respect.

Splitting hairs there feetlebaum.

Bags, "patronising" can be a difficult concept. Where do you draw the line between it and simply, caring?

Mamie - start some threads?

On the contrary, feetlebaum makes a very valid point.

So, you don't think it's possible to distinguish between basically decent beliefs and obviously horrendous ones?

annodomini, I've read a part of the book by Richard Holloway. He's a friend of my next-door-neighbour and M showed me certain sections of the book when he bought it. M is a retired Episcopalian Canon and often we all get together for a glass or two (!) After a 'few' one evening, I asked M if he believed we 'went anywhere' after death, and if he thought there had been a Jesus. He answered that if we felt we 'went somewhere' and it gave us comfort to think so, then that's what we should do. On my question about Jesus, he thought that there was definitely a Jesus who travelled and helped those in need. M's attitude is that we can only really do our best, and that our conscience should direct us to do that. I think that it's the way to go, too.

Marelli probably a cop out. But a sensible one.

"They" are pretty sure there was 'a' Jesus around that time in history. (Yes I know it was a common name, but YKWIM)

It's the Son of God bit and the miracles that are disputed.

Jingle, are you saying that you are not able to distinguish between harmless beliefs and those that cause harm to others? Of course, whether beliefs are harmful or not makes no difference to whether or not they are correct.

Mishap Well said.

No Greatnan! I was asking you that! In reply to your post.

I can distinguish. Dunno about you.

AlisonMA Your defence of suffering Christians has no relevance to my post. I am quite sure that there have been and are Christians who have suffered dreadfully and it doesn't surprise me that their faith has become stronger. I would expect them to move even closer to their god in times of trouble. What I was pointing out is that there are those who believe suffering to be a blessing from their loving and benign god. I don't believe that such people have ever really endured pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are not blessings.

It's like the church hierarchy who were horrified when anaesthetics started to be given to women in labour because they believed that women should suffer pain when giving birth. The hierarchy in question, of course, was all male and would never give birth – painlessly or otherwise.

Christians suffer in silence – sometimes perhaps but I doubt if you can provide statistics that would prove that they moan less when having a bad time than Jews, Moslems, Jains, Jeddai Knights, atheists, agnostics, etc.

Which Gransnetters are you accusing of doing a lot of talking about how brilliant/good/clever they are? I think that is an outrageous and disgraceful statement and I am horrified that anyone on this forum could make such a suggestion.

I've just read the various posts referring to mine and had to go back and re-read it as they seem to refer to things I didn't say. I made no reference to atheists at all! In fact I was simply saying positive things about my experience of some Christians. I didn't compare them to atheists. You may have different experiences to me but these are mine.

The point I failed to make about the mother of the Downs children is that she went on to have a second one when she so easily could not.

I am not going to trawl through old posts to find ones where people refer to their good works or their intelligence etc. but we all know they are there.

The person in the Thai jail was under sentence of death. It was after she found God that she was released.

I don't accept the accusation that "you seem to throw around an awful lot of accusations". What are they? A few comments but I haven't accused anyone of anything! This is very personal and I have never done that.

absent my defence is based upon your reiterated statement "I don't believe that such people have ever really endured pain or suffering." I would have thought that you would agree that pain and suffering are not limited to non-Christians.

You misunderstand, I didn't say that Christians suffer more than anyone else. "I doubt if you can provide statistics that would prove that they moan less when having a bad time than Jews, Moslems, Jains, Jeddai Knights, atheists, agnostics, etc." Where did you get that from?

It would be helpful if people would read the posts carefully before getting mad with me or anyone else.

Is it so wrong to quote one's own experiences when they differ from others?

Alison MA I most certainly do not know that there are posts where people refer to their good works or their intelligence, etc. I rather suspect I am not alone in not knowing "they are there". Strange that you cannot give a single example of where they are.

I am aware that you have made a number of accusations about Gransnetters beside this particular one and every one of them has struck me as completely fallacious.