Who has the right to forgive?

Secular spirituality is quite possible lily

Lilygran - We all have a spiritual component to our being. It may be natural to you to think of any spiritual experience in a religious context, for instance you might thank God for a beautiful sunset or think a male voice choir was singing to his glory. I would experience these with the same surge of emotion but would interpret them differently - the sunset would make me feel at one with nature, the choir would be an example of people coming together to create something which soars above the sum of its parts. It is difficult to offer a logical explanation of spiritual feelings or experiences as they do not come from the logical part of the brain. They relate to the spirit, soul, self, id (call it what you will) and come to the fore during times of grief, joy, despair, love, fellowship and so on. I recall being in an intensely spiritual state for some time after each of my parents died, when I was able to commune wordlessly with my sister, and other relatives - even our cat, usually aloof, snuggled up to me every time I sat down. Flowers seemed more colourful, the moon has never been brighter, everyday happenings were messages from the departed.

I have no religion but do have a strong sense of there being more to us humans than a body and a brain. A simple recent example was during our recent meet-up at Aberdour when Absent was unable to come but said she would be 'there in spirit' which indeed, she was as those of us who know her thought about her on the day and spoke about how we missed her. So, although she was physically absent her spirit was present. I hope this makes sense - it does to me.

I do think we are made of 'just' a body and a brain, but we know so little about the way the brain works that some things are still seen as magical, just as the aeroplane was thought to be when it first appeared to tribes in remote places.
Perhaps the brain gives out electrical waves which remain in the ether after we die? Or perhaps you can literally be 'on the same wavelength' as somebody you love. I keep an open mind about what science might discover, but that does not include the possibility of some supreme intelligence who created the universe but still remains so personal that it is worth praying for help to find your missing car keys!

Forgiveness can mean letting go of the pain. The forgiver benefits regardless of whether or not the perpetrator accepts the forgiveness.

But what does 'secular spirituality' actually mean? Is it anything more than having a good feeling? If it isn't, that's emotion, not spirituality. Car keys - very interesting discussion on radio (TV?) the other day ( can't give the link, sorry) which suggested that saying the thing you are looking for seems to help you focus on where it is. Maybe in that case, that's the power of prayer? Granny23 I really like your description, thank you

Yes, much more than having a good feeling.

I don't claim spirituality of any kind, but if I did it would be up to me to define it, nobody else.

Precisely what is forgiveness?

Whatever it means to the person defining it. For me, it would mean I had stopped wanting to punish somebody.

Lilygran Just as the devil has all the best tunes, it seems that god has cornered all the best vocabulary. I have been struggling with finding the language to discuss secular spirituality and keep coming up with words, such as transcendental, which imply a deity. This is terribly frustrating. Perhaps the very nature of a secular, or indeed religious spiritual experience is that is it inexpressible and ineffable – but then that seems like a cop out.

You're confused? That makes two of us, absent. But my take on it would be that the kind of experience people have been describing is related to the transcendental they deny the existence of.

Anyone who wants to has the right to forgive. Punishment is a separate issue. It's conceivable that some people will forgive Anders Breivik but still think he should remain under lock and key for others' safety.

Transcendental numbers are fun but defining spirituality is like shovelling fog.