Faith or Reason?

How is Switzerland unspecified? I didn't specify it in my last comment because I assumed you would remember it from previous ones.

I'm not mixing anything up.

I say successful assisted dying legislation is in place in Oregon and Switzerland. That is not the same thing as saying euthanasia legislation is in place. I suspect therein lies your antagonism to the idea – you are looking on the assisted dying as a problem, whereas I look on it as a solution to a problem.

Quote Bags re euthanasia: "It is a right and proper and humane and moral thing to include in a civilised society."

No. It's doing fine right where it is. Tucked away in some clinic in Switzerland where it can be indulged in (?) by those who want to indulge. Leave things alone.

Perhaps the slippery slope thing should always be borne in mind, just to protect us from the oddballs out there.

It is so important to distinguish between personal belief and fact. Statistics are out there to support both sides of the argument as far as I can see from a brief surf.

Even stats on suicide rates are challenged because they leave out certain age groups, for instance.

A group who are abviously anti assisted-dying are quoting 'facts' which are quite worrying if they are true. Out of the 70 odd people in Oregan who received assistance to die (by being given a presciption of lethal drugs), only four received assessment for depression first, a couple 'came round' after taking the drugs and died a few days later from their illness (usually cancer), a number of people have given testimonies saying how pleased they now are that they were persuaded not to go ahead with the 'suicide'. And so on.

There were even statistics supposedly demonstrating that the slippery slope effect is happening in some cases (even if it is a logical fallacy).

I am in favour of assisted dying or even euthanasia under some circumstances and with stringent safeguards in place (easier said than done I would guess) but I like to keep an open mind and acknowledge that there is likely to be some merit in the opposing position.

straightforward explanation of slippery slope

oddballs' type of explanation

As you were. Don't mind me.

You misquoted me, jings. I distinguish between assisted dying, which is the choice of the person who wishes to end their life but may need assistance to do that, and euthanasia, which includes choices about who dies made by people other than the dying person.

Assisted dying only applies to people who are already dying, or who would be already dying if the interventioins that keep them alive were withdrawn.

Euthanasia would apply to anyone whose life is ended when they themselves have not chosen it.

So the quote that you give is about assisted dying (as is clear from my posts) and not about euthanasia.

People who disagree with me are not making the clear distinction that I am making.

Apart from looking for a good link for the Oregon info, which I'll post when I find it, I've said all I want to say on this thread. It has been a good discussion.

j08 yes I like those two kinds of explanation, especially the first.

The problem with leaving it tucked away in Switzerland somewhere, though, is that ill people have to judge when they are likely to become incapable of travelling under their own steam in order to get to Switzerland. If they leave it too late, they're stuck because no-one is able to assist them without fear of being prosecuted and sent to prison. This means that some people die before they really need to.

public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/index.aspx

t.nbcnews.com/health/vermont-passes-law-allowing-doctor-assisted-suicide-6C10003656

Seems there's a recent law in Vermont as well and that it is called assisted suicide in the Sates.

If you don't like slippery slopes, how about unintended consequences?

Euthanasia? No... but Assisted Dying - yes!

You don't have any say in euthanasia, whereas being helped to achieve your desired end - death - is a different matter.

In the cases that have been publicised, the person wishing to die would have been able to do so had he/she not been disabled, so there is an element of discrimination. Attempted suicide is no longer illegal so the law recognises a person's right to choose their own time to die - I believe that right should be extended to people who need help to achieve it. Confusing assisted suicide with euthanasia is a weaselly tactic!

Here in Switzerland, all can become a member of EXIT - and request help if ever they need to. This is very carefully monitored - and people can choose to die in their own home, in their own bed or favourite armchair, surrounded by their family if they choose, with their favourite music on, or whatever. The volunteers who are trained to help always visit the person first, and insist on talking to them ON THEIR OWN - and are trained to ask all the necessary questions and read any sign of hesitation or coercion. Once they are totally sure that assisted dying is absolutely what they want, they will agree on a date in the near future, and explain exactly the procedure. if the volunteer perceives any hesitation, they say they will come and discuss it again in a few days, and so on.

On the day agreed, the volunteer will again speak to the person on their own - and again assess any sign of hesitation or coersion - and will only go ahead if they are totally sure that this is truly what is wanted- and then go ahead with the procedure- and stay afterwards to help the family with their grief. I feel truly privileged that this is available to me, and I've now been member for 4 years. I am in excellent health and have never ever harboured any suicide thought, as I love life and my family too much - but for me it is the best insurance policy I could ever buy (and the cost for membership is very small btw) - it is a wonderful relief to know that if ever I am struck with a terrible disease that will rob me of all dignity and mean that I would suffer a terribly painful death, suffocating and unable to breathe or move - help will be there for me.

It is tragic that people in the UK have to rely on Dignitas - and have as only choice to come and die in a concrete apartment on an industrial estate- away from the comforts of home, and often family, due to cost. Tragic beyond belief. I am very tolerant of people who are religious- but will NEVER EVER ACCEPT THAT THEY DICTATE HOW I LIVE - AND MORE IMPORTANTLY HOW I DIE. It is none of their ****** business!

It is about time the UK should break the shackles of unacceptable and unwanted interference by the religious lobbies - and in the first instance getting rid of Bishops etc in the Lords. The influence of the Christian lobby is far too great in a modern secular society.

I don't think it's just the Christian lobby who are against assisted dying for this country.

Which other groups are and for what reason? Thanks.

If you Google something like 'atheists and assisted dying' you will find there are quite a few non-Christians who have reservations about assisted dying, obviously not because they are afraid of offending God but for non religious reasons such as the knock-on effect and the difficulty in putting in place effective safeguards.

Not only that but a recent survey has shown that the majority of Christians of all denominations are in favour of assisted dying.

I don't think it is the case that all Christians are against assisted dying and all non-Christians are for it.

Yes, that makes sense, Petallus. It would be ridiculous to presume that all those against assisted dying are driven by religious conviction.

Thank you, interesting. However the Christian groups still have an over-bearing influence on legislation in the UK, I'd say.

I can't agree with that Granjura. I don't think religion comes into policy making where this is concerned.

No slippery slope with the 'exit' system I've described above. it works so well and with the approval of the majority of the population.

The real problem we still have, even in Switzerland, is with Alzheimers and Dementia, as even if someone has made very specific plans, to get the support of Exit on the day, you have to demonstrate of being of sound mind and judgement. So even here, people have to make the sad and tragic choice at the earliest signs of the disease- or it may become too late. Exit is fighting this, and trying to ensure that if people make specific requests explaining exactly at which stage of decline 'exit' should happen, it should be respected.

For me it would be when I do not recognise my loved ones any more, when I've stopped smiling when hearing a bird sing - if my mil had known the sort of things she would do in late stage Alzheimers... which I can't describe here out of respect for her... I know she would not have wanted to live one day longer.