A very modern death

Exactly granjura she only asked him not to do a talk, she had hymns and prayers. You don't need a vicar, but you do need to discuss it.

You also have to respect the person. My father-in-law had no religious beliefs and didn't go to church, but he was 104 and to his generation a funeral was religious. He had had regular talks with the vicar beforehand.

I don't think that people being stuck for words when someone is widowed young means that the subject is taboo. I think that means they are stuck for words because they don't know what to say that would be of help to the bereaved, because they don't want to say the wrong thing and make the bereaved person feel worse, and so on. Being stuck for words in a delicate situation is different from not wanting to say anything because it is taboo.

Taboo connotes some kind of prohibition to me. That stuff in my previous paragraph is just social awkwardness, or something of that nature. People don't say nothing because it's forbidden.

At least, that's my understanding.

Sorry... say nothing, not don't say nothing.

Scrub that. The original is correct, if awkward!

And we are all so different. Two younger colleagues lost their mum far too young. One of them confided in me that she was so hurt nobody ever talked to her about her mum, her life, her death- and she thought it was as though her mother had never lived- and so painful to her.

The other confided in me that she was so fed up with people insisting on asking about her mum all the time- and she could not stand it- saying she was trying to put the grief behind her, and people kept opening the wounds. Sometimes you just can't win- either side.

As I really like our friend the Vicar, i could never ask him to lie on my behalf- knowing what a strong and sincere Christian he is. For me, it would be total disrespect for his faith, and for him too. He respects that.

I think it is taboo or we would have lots of discussions about how to handle death with the bereaved - and we simply don't. People will cross the road to avoid because they are stuck for words - they are stuck for words because it is a subject that is avoided. People ask for advice on Internet sites because they can't start a discussion with those they know.

If it was a subject openly discussed then the other 79.7% of nurses would know what to say to patients.

When my husband died, we knew he wanted to be cremated. The service was in the crematorium because that was the easiest place, and we were not religious. His coffin was maple because it was the wood that his guitar was made of, but it was as cheap as the willow ones or cardboard ones, and the only people to speak were his sons and granddaughter. The music was his favourite songs from when he used to play, and guitar music from John Williams.
We then went to a pub next door and had something to eat and drink. His cousins talked to our children and grandchildren and told them all sorts of things about him that we never knew. we have been back to that pub quite often, and still talk about him.
It was a good death, if there is such a thing, and a good funeral.

I think that a "good death" is quite individual.
Personally, I have found it easier when relatives died in hospital, and I think that I might want that too. Seems easier?

My close relatives have written down their choice of hymns, flowers etc.
I did that, and changed my mind about some of it 3 months later. And again 3 months after that!
I concluded that I could have many more changes of heart about it, so tore up the piece of paper!

But what matters is what's on the paper when you die. If there is no paper, your wishes do not matter.
My husband changed his living will lots of times, every time something happened that made him think again, but he died using it, and at home.
If you know you are going to die, it's easier at home, with family able to visit any time they want.

You (and your DH) were lucky to have that choice, durhamjen.

I think that a good death is one that is very sudden and peaceful, like a friend's mother who died in her birthday after a small party and sitting in her chair looking at her cards - no illness beforehand. It is just hard for everyone else.

That is the trouble with a sudden death.
It can be "nice" for the departed.
But an awful shock for those left.

I have noticed that a sudden death seems to take quite a bit longer for the surviving spouse or partner to move on from.
If death has been a long time in coming, part of the grieving process seems to happen alongside the ending.

Very true- but I think 'a good death' is one where you have the consolation of thinking it was a nice way to go for the person.

Soontobe, you said you wrote down what you wanted on a piece of paper, then changed your mind a few times, so tore up the paper.
Everybody knows they are going to die sometime. If you write down what you want, then it does not matter whether you die suddenly or over a few months. It will help your family to know what you want.
Of course, whether they take any notice or not is another matter.

I do think it is interesting that the early modern period idea of a good death placed the responsibility (especially) upon the dying person to have a 'good death' whereas now (in Western societies especially) the onus is distributed across the family, the person and society and it is predicated upon the relief of symptoms, the sense of 'tidying' ones emotional and practical business and achieving some goals. The rise of the 'bucket list' is interesting and relatively modern example of the latter.

As for an afterlife- that is something that Christians do focus upon, some churches more than others. In fact it would be lovely if all religions paid more mind to ' building the Kingdom here and now by living as one should' because on the basis of so many wars having religion at their heart (since time immemorial) they need to do a better job. i was in church a few weeks ago and was disturbed to be encouraged to pray for 'The Christians' around the world who were suffering or in war or other in extremis. I would politely suggest that praying for all people would be a more constructive and Christian thing to do (although I am sure somebody will provide some justification of catechism for this).

But that's a whole 'nother debate

Agus

It wasn't easy finding the time but we did have self directed study days and of course, the code of conduct made us all responsible for our own learning (or lack of). No excuse if any of us didn't know how to provide end of life care to somebody who was a Parsee or worshiped Jainism.

MT ...to have a 'good death' whereas now (in Western societies especially) the onus is distributed across the family, the person and society

Made me think that preparing for a "good death" should also include taking responsibility for personal health and well-being for as far as and as long as is humanly possible, placing the responsibility on the individual for the duration of their life (given that death is part of life).

On another note - and about that indefinable "life force" - my brother once leaped on to an out of control powerboat in the harbour - the skipper had suffered a heart attack and my brother was also out on the water, and he later recounted that as he scooped this man, who had collapsed, up in his arms (having cut the power on the boat) - he (my brother) felt a whoosh as if some force had gone right through him. We would respond "Yes, adrenalin" and he would say, "No, it wasn't - I knew at that moment he had died". And yes, he did get a citation for bravery!

Leticia I so agree- I would have much 'preferred' to lose my mother when she was still in her prime, aged 85, of a sudden death- than to see her awful, painful decline- the loss of her eyes, her legs, her independence, her dignity, for another 10 years- which she hated with a vengeance. Very different of course with younger people.

Her dream was to go of a quick heart attack and be done with- but she had the most awful 10+ years of misery. I certainly would not wish that to anyone I love, and not for myself either- and I think my children would see that too, especially after the experience with their beloved grandmother- and agree it would be best for me... and for them too. They know how much it 'cost' me in a 1000s of ways, including my health to some extent- to have to give up my job to spend the 10 years back and forth to pick up the pieces, again and again (not that I regret any of it, thanks).

I have been soaking up the therapeutic benefits of the Miss Read books while I have been recuperating and was struck by this passage in the voice of an elderly school mistress:

"I've had a good life, and a useful one too, I hope. And I've loved every minute of it. But, to tell you the truth my dear, I am getting tired now, and I shall be happy and ready to step aside whenever the time comes. I like to think of someone else teaching the children here, someone else picking my roses and sitting under the apple tree I watched my father plant. I've had my party, said my party piece, and I shall be glad to give my thanks and go quietly home."

Perfectly put. I love Miss Read

It's funny. The Miss Read books appealed a lot to me when I was in my thirties. Can't stand them now!

I only ever get them out after surgery - 3 big lots in my life - and I find them wonderfully restful and undemanding in that situation- they just seem to hit the spot. It is the only time they come down from the shelf - I hope that, when I put them back this time, I will have no reason to get them down again!

My husband and I arranged our funerals last year it was a very bizarre experience we did it for our children so they would not need to worry about the cost or what we would have wanted

I really don't want this to degenerate into yet another 'let's all have a pop at Christians because they choose, in one church, on one occasion, to pray for persecuted Christians in the Middle East. If you attended church regularly, or even irregularly, you would know that different groups of people are prayed for each week. To pray for one group doesn't mean excluding another. But as you presumably believe that prayer, of whatever kind, is pointless, I don't understand why you are troubled by it.

I do wonder why you feel the need to say the churches need to do a better job. I would never preach that atheists need to do a better job. People need to look to their own conscience before they start instructing others.

As for the old canard 'so many wars have religion at their heart'. Wars are about greed, land grabs, power and pillage. Sometimes, they use religion as a hook and a justification. Sometimes it's an ideology qv the Pol Pot massacres, the Rwandan slaughter, the millions who died in the camps and the millions more who died in Staninist Russia. Man's inhumanity to man knows no bounds.

As for a good death. In mediaeval and early modern times that meant putting ones house in order, making peace with anyone who has been unjustly treated, repaying debts and sharing out ones worldly possessions. And making ones peace with God.

I agree the recent idea of a bucket list is distasteful but that's a symptom of our present day materialistic society, and to be regretted, I think.

And, yes, Mishap, I love Miss Read. I wrote to her when I was just a teenager and got such a lovely reply, I think she must have been a serene and contented person.