Religious tolerance

Well said Jura

soon, I asked not because I ask this of God, I asked you because you certaintly seemed so sure that God picks and chooses. I am not grieving, I do not believe God decided - I will let them die . I am sorry but I think your belief that God chooses who suffers pain and who doesn't is cruel and it is this belief that drives people away from God

The post I most remember simce my time on gransnet, is Anniebach's about all her losses.
I cant even remember them all, as there were so many.

No,I am definitely not saying the third paragraph granjura.

soon. do read "A song for Issy Bradley" - though I suspect your sympathies will be more with the "bishop" who was too busy burying his grief in obedient acceptance to God's will and being at the beck and call of his demanding parishioners to notice that his wife was being destroyed by hers.

Emotional, mental and spiritual pain may be assuaged by a strong faith and the belief that it is in God's plan and that all will be well in heaven, but physical pain and physical illness have their roots in physical processes. For God to overturn the laws of physics and the workings of the universe to influence these takes a miracle, and they only occur rarely. If they seem to be made less by faith, perhaps it is the power of the human will that is the influence.

I dont think you are going to be comfortable with me asking you personal questions.

I could start to disect everything if you want, but I dont think you want me to.

I am not sure if the answers I might give, would help at all or not.

I get the impression that you dont want to do this via pm either.

I am not sure if your issue is really with God.

I have not been in your shoes, no one has.

I will come back to your post at some point Elegran.

11.05am post was re Anniebach.

Granjura , thank you, I wish I hadn't brought it up now yet it had to be said . I cannot accept or share the beliefs soon holds, it is a cruel teaching in my opinion, I never felt God chose to let my babies die ,I knew they were taken to Christ, they died because it happens, always have always will , it happens to those of faith and those of no faith, God doesn't 'do' favourites , not my God anyway.

I hope this hasn't caused distress to anyone in grief

This is my God, a lovely story told me by a Rabbi

When the red sea parted and the Egyptians drown there was rejoicing in heaven among the angels but God cried, an angel asked - why are you crying your children have been saved. God replied - and my children have drowned

No need, soontobe, it wasn't meant as a question.

Does this actually mean you believe in paragraphs 1 and 2 then?

I was very very young when I realised that this was so so wrong. How can children born of non Christians be punished in such a way for not being born into the faith, but to another or none (think of Indians from isolated tribes). How can the children of Christians suffer so to test their parents' faith?

How can a loving Father test their children so- but especially their babies and little ones, who cannot make a choice?

I am so glad to say that NONE of my Chrisitian friends believe that, none.

soon,i have no problem with anyone asking questions . If I have an issue it is with your and all fundamentalists beliefs . There is no love , they are fear driven

nobody is 'tested' that is a lot of nonsense, and actually, arrogant nonsense
as it confers a sense of importance to a human above others.

Paragraph 1 and 2 is what I was told by our Vicar when I was a child- about a young school friend who died of TB and another after a hockey accident. And when there was a huge landslide in Peru- and another in Wales.

I have often discussed this with our Vicar in the UK and several here- and they all, without any hesitation, said that paragraph 1 and 2 is WRONG, totally WRONG- and both cause so much damage to the Christian Faith- more than anything else.

I have another proviso with asking you questions. If you dont agree, or have no intention of agreeing with anything I am going to say, then there is no point.
In other words, if you only have disdain for either myself, or what I might say, there is nothing to be gained whatsoever.

If on the other hand, you are really listening, then I will begin what might be a painful process. Which you can obviously opt out of at any time.

All posts to Anniebach.

All my posts...

soon, I hold no distain for you, I cannot agree with your beliefs on God choosing who should suffer pain ,i am troubled for you, there seems no joy in your faith and your belief that those who suffer pain didn't pray hard enough is not a belief I share .I watched men dig for the bodies of their children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews , I listened to the mothers cry out in pray - please God save my child , some where saved some were not. This was not a choice made by God. An alcoholic lost his son, the minister at our Baptist church lost his two sons , a lovely family friend lost his two sons, wife and house, he didn't blame God he blamed the NCB and rightly so.

God didn't choose to let that little boy drown, he drowned because of mans inhumanity to man

On a personal level, I am very joyous! Difficult to portray across the internet. Memo to self. Start a joyous religious thread at some point.

At what age did you become a Christian? Were you a Christian when you lost your husband and sons?

Sorry to go on about this soon but the books of the NT are respectively
The 4 Gospels ("according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John"
The Acts of the Apostles ( might constitute a "book")
The Letters of Paul to:
the Romans
the Corinthians( 1 & 2)
the Galatians
The Ephesians
the Philippians
the Colossians
the Thessalonians 1&2)
Timothy (1&2)
Titus
Philemon
the Hebrews
Then there are the letters of James (from to the 12 tribes)
of Peter (1&2)
of John (1,2&3)
of Jude
and finally the "Book of Revelations", more properly called the Revelation of John.
So while they may be "books" in the sense that they make up the NT, the Epistles are more properly referred to as such.
I just think it is helpful to be accurate.
Hope I have been.

I didn't have sons.

Difficult to say when I became a Christian ,i was a child of the manse so i suppose it started as a way of life , I watched and listened, when old enough I asked questions , so many my mother said one of my names should have been why. I started attending services about aged two or three , I was not expected to be a Christian by my parents. I think I was fourteen when I offered my life to God . Never felt deserted by him even through dark times , the psalms were a comfort - you have asked me about the psalms. I try to follow the teachings of Christ ,often fail but keep trying . I never expect God to place my prayers above the hopes of those of no faith, I know he loves me, loves you, I know a God of love not a God who gives black marks or gold stars depending on a persons faith. I believe he loves me not because I pray or attend mass , he loves me warts and all.

Do you believe that God is awesome, powerful, can do anything? That he can overcome the devil?
Have you read the book of Job?

Do you believe that Hell exists? Sorry for all the questions. I will get to the point. Have to go out for a couple of hours now. I should be back in a few hours.

Annie - I am an agnostic when it comes to religious belief - kindness is the doctrine I try to live by. But I have to say that your brand of religion is so much more human than soon's, whose approach to those around her via her faith is inhuman in my book.

soon - just because you have little experience of bereavement, does this make it quite impossible for you to go on to a bereavement thread and simply be human? Every thread of yours that I read makes me despair for mankind. Methodists are usually more open-minded in my experience, and yes, more kind. Come on soon - join the rest of us in the human race; dredge up some kindness from somewhere; be brave enough to to be wrong. You cannot fall back on the bible all the time - you have to take responsibility for your actions and comments. It is just a total cop-out.

Even more personal questions. Was your husband a Christian? Did he have an illness?

Luckygirl, so many different teachings in the same faith, a very dear friend was a Calvanist, intelligent woman , lecturer of English Lit, she was horrified when I went to Harworth, Yorkshire for a holiday ,i loved walking the moors , seeing the home of the Bronte family , you would have thought I had spent a holiday in hell, she declared it a dark place !