Does God exist? I'd like to be clear in my mind

Smileless2012 Thu 10-Oct-19 14:34:05

Paul's and the apostles teaching was handed down to the 2nd generation church fathers, people like Irenaus, Polycarp and Clement. Later to Augustine, Jerome et al.

What you are saying is that none of the gospels, none of the writings of the apostles and none of this tradition handed down through the generations, has any truth or credibility.

You believe that the Gnostic gospels/'secret knowledge' discovered in the NH library, are more valid and more believable than the whole of the Christian tradition.

I do not so stop trying to put words into my mouth.

You ignore that the Jesus you know also had secret knowledge that he taught the apostles, while only giving parable to the non-initiated.

Your double standard is noted.

There is lots of truth in all wisdom writings if you know how to read them.

Literalists do not know how to read scriptures.

Gnostic Christians do.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

Regards
DL

Smileless2012 Thu 10-Oct-19 14:22:11

Regardless of whether or not you do so, or how many times you put "Regards DL" at the end of your posts, I find them offensive; "your vile genocidal god's doing".

You believe in the Gnostic gospels found in the Nag Hammadi Library and I believe in the gospels of the new testament.

If you wish to prove make a point by referring to texts you should quote them and not simply state your own interpretation of them.

2 Corinthians 3 v 14 was a reference to the Jews who did not believe in Jesus as the messiah and crucified Him. "But their minds were closed for to this day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed". So, God did not harden hearts, all were given the same opportunity to accept the love of God in Christ.

In other translations, none refer to God hardening hearts for example NIV "but their minds were made dull" English Standard Version "but their minds were hardened"; minds, not hearts
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You should be offended by the truth about the prick of a satanic god you follow.

Unfortunately, you lack the moral sense to condemn him for his genocides.

You might wonder why you like a Hitler type of god.

You have embraced Jesus while rejecting Yahweh and thus break the first commandment.

Go hide behind the ridiculous Trinity concept to explain your lack of a moral sense all you like.

Regards
DL

Greenfinch Thu 10-Oct-19 14:18:58

Gnostic You obviouslydo not understand my sentence.Scientific evidence that they did not exist is clearly not the same as no scientific evidence that they exist.

I am getting quite confused about what you are saying and so will have to agree to disagree. My faith is in a person not in a series of intellectual arguments.
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Faith without facts is for fools.

A book of myths is not a book of facts.

Regards
DL

Paul's and the apostles teaching was handed down to the 2nd generation church fathers, people like Irenaus, Polycarp and Clement. Later to Augustine, Jerome et al.

What you are saying is that none of the gospels, none of the writings of the apostles and none of this tradition handed down through the generations, has any truth or credibility.

You believe that the Gnostic gospels/'secret knowledge' discovered in the NH library, are more valid and more believable than the whole of the Christian tradition.

It's like comparing apples with pears.

Ohhps Thing not think !

HettyMaud, in your OP you say you don’t know what you are, well I think that is a good think that you haven’t pigeonholed yourself.
From your posts I have the impression of an enquiring , intelligent human being who is predominantly a good person who believes in & tries to live her life thoughtfully & caring.
Keep up the good work & forget the labels. Best wishes

"My faith is in a person not a series of intellectual arguments" great post Greenfinch.

Regardless of whether or not you do so, or how many times you put "Regards DL" at the end of your posts, I find them offensive; "your vile genocidal god's doing".

You believe in the Gnostic gospels found in the Nag Hammadi Library and I believe in the gospels of the new testament.

If you wish to prove make a point by referring to texts you should quote them and not simply state your own interpretation of them.

2 Corinthians 3 v 14 was a reference to the Jews who did not believe in Jesus as the messiah and crucified Him. "But their minds were closed for to this day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed". So, God did not harden hearts, all were given the same opportunity to accept the love of God in Christ.

In other translations, none refer to God hardening hearts for example NIV "but their minds were made dull" English Standard Version "but their minds were hardened"; minds, not hearts.

Gnostic You obviouslydo not understand my sentence.Scientific evidence that they did not exist is clearly not the same as no scientific evidence that they exist.

I am getting quite confused about what you are saying and so will have to agree to disagree. My faith is in a person not in a series of intellectual arguments.

Smileless2012 Thu 10-Oct-19 13:53:13

Your last post has just shown that mine that you refer too is correct; you don't understand."

You have yet to put away the things of children, supernatural thinking, so I will keep understanding my way instead of your failed way.

If you are correct, and I am wrong, as you can see by these quotes, it is your vile genocidal god's doing.


Why does god harden hearts against his own wish to be believed to be god?
In 2 Corinthians 3;14 - 15 God hardens Jewish hearts against their believing in Jesus as their messiah.

John 12;39-40 says about the same. The same applies to Romans 11;25, 2 Corinthians 4;3-4,

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Your last post has just shown that mine that you refer too is correct; you don't understand.

You can disagree with me; goodness knows I disagree with you but it is not for you to tell me that I or anyone else is wrong for what we believe or do not believe.

Ephesians Chap. v 8 "For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God".

I reckon the Archbishop of Canterbury could have written this thread title.

Who can ever be that sure?

Wishful thinking.

Smileless2012 Wed 09-Oct-19 23:29:19

"No, faith isn't "pure idol worship", but if you don't have faith you wont understand that."

If an ideal/god is not what you have faith in, you would be right, but you do think your god is supreme and thus your highest idolised personage. Right?

If not, who do you put above whatever you have faith in?

If you do not understand that you idol worship that highest ideal. If you have faith, you should understand.

Regards
DL

SirChenjin Thu 10-Oct-19 11:10:04

"If you accept that faith is a choice,"

If you follow the Christian god, your own bible says that we have no free choice in whether we believe of not.

It is decided by god by his giving grace to believe or hardening of hearts so that we cannot believe.

Why does god harden hearts against his own wish to be believed to be god?
In 2 Corinthians 3;14 - 15 God hardens Jewish hearts against their believing in Jesus as their messiah.

John 12;39-40 says about the same. The same applies to Romans 11;25, 2 Corinthians 4;3-4,

Regards
DL

Greenfinch Thu 10-Oct-19 11:10:25

Gnostic I am puzzled by your belief about God. If you are are Christian as stated you surely must believe in the God Christ pointed to ie a loving Father figure.

I don't believe that atheism or religion can be proved. We have finite minds and cannot comprehend all there is to know and so we have to make up our own minds about what we believe and be tolerant of others. For what we can't answer we must remain agnostic or accept by faith.
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We do not know, as you seem to know, who the Father was for Jesus.

There is more than one Jesus in scriptures. There is the Rome created one that Constantine forced down the churches throat, and there is the Gnostic Jesus I follow.

The Father of Roman Jesus is said to be above somewhere while the Gnostic Jesus says that we are gods in our own rite.

The Gnostic Jesus, the church never quotes.

I do.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This Jesus is more of an eastern mystic. Right?

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

nightswimmer Thu 10-Oct-19 11:43:08

"Everyone to their own."

I do not see yours as a good ideology.

You allow harm to others to go unchallenged.

If you think you should live by the Golden Rule, change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

Regards
DL

Greenfinch Thu 10-Oct-19 11:56:11

" Yes I would unless there was scientific evidence that they did not exist.Your use of the word mythological is interesting. What is a myth ?"

Do you also think Thor is real because there is no scientific proof or evidence that he exists?

Regards
DL

Equally, your willingness to accept those mythical creatures as a possiblility is interesting - but each to their own.

Gods are myths as far as I’m concerned (although I don’t really think you’d expect me to say anything else). That doesn’t mean that my beliefs are any more or less valid than people who do have a faith.

Yes I would unless there was scientific evidence that they did not exist.Your use of the word mythological is interesting. What is a myth ?

Everyone to their own.

For what we can't answer we must remain agnostic or accept by faith

Would you extend that to everything we can't answer? I know it's a simplistic analogy, but would you suggest that approach to mythical creatures in folklore such as elves and fairies?

smiless2012 Thank you.

Twiceasnice That is a wonderful quote from Malcolm Muggeridge and said far better than I could have done.

Like most people of faith,, I do not criticise those who are not and see no reason why they should belittle my beliefs.

I don’t think that Agnostic is going to change those who believe in a god, nor those of us who do are going to change her opinions,

Gnostic I am puzzled by your belief about God. If you are are Christian as stated you surely must believe in the God Christ pointed to ie a loving Father figure.

I don't believe that atheism or religion can be proved. We have finite minds and cannot comprehend all there is to know and so we have to make up our own minds about what we believe and be tolerant of others. For what we can't answer we must remain agnostic or accept by faith.

If you accept that faith is a choice, then of course we have free will - but that wasn't what my post said. Luckygirl has it spot on with her table analogy. I could choose to believe that there's a table there even if there obviously isn't one, but for people who do believe in Christ and their god (like Twice and Malcolm Muggeridge) it's not necessary to see something before they know something exists in order to have that faith, it's inherent - and who am I to question that? I can only speak for myself.

So if I truly believe I can fly, that makes it true?

That'll be handy when I want to nip to the supermarket.

It's not a belief such as believing in the death penalty or abortion, is it?