Does God exist? I'd like to be clear in my mind

I just love the fact that people who don’t believe in God do it because they think God [or gods] causes or allows [insert preferred tragedy here]. Either such an event is bad luck through random chance, in which case no-one is to blame so it shouldn’t have any impact on belief either way, or people choose to blame the God or gods they don’t believe in.

Don’t get me wrong, the problem of evil has tested the minds of some of the finest philosophers over the centuries. People who suffer or who observe suffering in others have a natural tendency to need to make sense of the suffering by seeing a cause behind it. But there’s a world of difference between being angry with [God or gods] and not believing in the same.

Man didn't kill my friends 6 year old Annie nor give the 13 year old incurable leukaemia ...and he sure as all the medical research into her condition isn't the reason my daughter is chronically ill .You keep believeing IF it helps get you through the night but forgive me if I dont subscribe to the fairy tale.Actually I dont need your or anyone elses forgiveness but your god could do with apologising for the total mess he's made

No need to apologise, Tweedle. There aren't many concrete answers in this topic.
I've been told that some writings exist somewhere from Jesus' time reporting on his preaching etc.

Sorry Fennel, you are quite right. I oversimplified.

I agree Anniebach. The immanent God present in this world is the one we can serve to try to make sure these man made evils don't happen.

Alexa we have free will. Man could have prevented what happened in 1966.

Now we are hearing about the contaminated blood which took the lives of so many. Man knew the blood was contaminated yet pumped it into people , this was the 70’s
and 80’s, I have two nephews born in the 80’s, both have
hemophilia, both could now be dead. Killed by man not God.

You make an excellent point Anniebach and I respect your personal experience of a terrible event.

However there are natural evils that men are not responsible for , Tsunamis. The influenza virus. Intractable pain.

If God is all-powerful to create and intervene in this world's events we have to ask why He does not do so.

Why did He make men to create even more evil than natural evils? One answer is God created this terrible world because God is not only transcendent but is also immanent in the world.

I will bring this up yet again.

21st October 1966 I watched parents and rescue workers digging out the bodies of 116 children from a school covered
in a landslide of a coal tip.

Heard so many times ‘where was God’, why did God let this
happen’, ‘there is no God’ . I know it affected the faith of John
Humphrys then a young reporter.

Man built those tips, the villagers complained to the National
Coal Board that when it rained sludge was running down the hill onto the road. The year before the head teacher was photographed handing in a letter of complaint, she was one of the victims.

Warnings and complaints were ignored, Man built the tips, man was told of the sludge, man ignored it.

Man killed the children not God.

Gnostic wrote:

"All that we know of all the gods come from humans, some say enlightened humans, but if you look ate the vile mainstream homophobic and misogynous religions, you might wonder if Satan was doing the enlightenment for Christianity and Islam."

The religions are all human inventions. Let's be fair: for all the religions' horrible histories they have been the carriers of the important message of how people can live in civilised ways.

Lazigirl:
"I think humans have evolved to learn to be altruistic in order to live in social groups."

So do I but have you suggested that to somebody of the neo-liberal right?

One way of thinking is all evil is natural evil.
Evil is subjective but nevertheless we all recognise evil as a universal quality.
If we want to serve god we try to reduce evil whenever we can.
Obviously there is going to be fighting, some of it political, going on about social evils and how to make them better than they are.

Each of us is responsible for our own conception of what is evil. It's a cop out to blame god, or fate, for evil. The thing is to get on with making things better.

Gnostic I wonder what you mean by the word "evil"? Do you think children can be inherently evil?

I do believe in treating people with kindness whenever possible, and think that if one is treated badly to return the treatment does nothing to resolve the situation, merely exacerbates it and can cause bitterness all round.

I think humans have evolved to learn to be altruistic in order to live in social groups.

Jews do believe that Jesus existed - he seems to have been a Jewish Rabbi. But wasn't the Messiah.
I find the concept of the Messiah difficult to accept.

Gnostic The verses you quote talk about Jews not believing in Jesus, not denying that God exists.

God cannot be all- powerful AND make Paddyann's daughter suffer! I do hope she finds some medication to make her confortable.

Alexa

I agree with Gnostic,if indeed Gnostic means we make god as we go along living and seeking truth, goodness, and beauty.

Looks like we might be on the same mental page.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA

All that we know of all the gods come from humans, some say enlightened humans, but if you look ate the vile mainstream homophobic and misogynous religions, you might wonder if Satan was doing the enlightenment for Christianity and Islam.

Regards
DL

Luckygirl

``all that matters is kindness.`

If you return kindness for evil, are you not rewarding evil?

If you have two children and reward the evil child just as much as the good child, what do you think your good child will think of his good deeds as compared to your evil childs evil deeds?

I think your good child will resent not being treated any better than you evil child.

Even Jesus taught to turn the other cheek, which is a Jewish insult.

Rewarding evil just creates more evil.

Regards
DL

Greenfinch

Let me know if it is poorly written.
I like to be understood.

Regards
DL

I agree with you paddyann . I used to have this very same “argument” with my late grandma who was very religious . She didn’t really have an answer.

Sorry this is so long. I've been thinking over these things a lot lately.

I've had a life-long struggle with this question, too, HettyMaud. I would lay in bed many nights at a very young age thinking about about death and the endless universe and work myself into a panic. My parents were atheist and I envied those who grew up with religious faith. Very early on, however, friends up the street told me that my parents would go to hell for not believing or being baptized which made no sense at all to me. My mom and dad were, in my mind, very good people. That only made me more confused and gave me another thing to worry about late at night.

In my teens, I tried to make sense of all the suffering I saw in the world. I read up on religion and philosophy - (CS Lewis, Alan Watts' The Book, Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, etc.), and went to different church services with many friends. I finally realized that I couldn't attach myself to any church that thought their beliefs were "right" and everyone else's were "wrong". Religious dogma seemed very restrictive and cruel to me. Re/ the Bible, I couldn't understand how people could accept each word as the truth when it conflicted itself in so many place and was dependent on hearsay, alterations by the church, translation errors, historical differences in how words were defined, and changes over time as BradfordLass refers to in her 10/1 post.

I was living away from my parents for the first time when I saw the Challenger blow up live on TV. I was a teacher, at home with my first son, and was devastated by the tragedy and alone in a new place. I turned again to reading - When Bad Things Happen To Good People" and books by Raymond Moody, Ken Ring, Michael Sabom about NDEs (Near Death Experiences). Re/ the latter, I loved that so many people came back from these experiences feeling some of the things that had always felt true to me: less attachment to dogma, a belief in the universality of all religions, less interest in material things, more tolerance and caring for others, and so on. Most also lost their fear of death! I'd found something like religion that I could hold on to. Hetty Maud, given what you said in your reply to all of the comments, I thought you might be interested in the above. Or not.

I've since read dozens books on those types of topics and experiences, all of which needed to be based on research and/or verified anecdotes. I worked as a hospice volunteer, cared for my grandma and mom when they were terminally ill and had some interesting experiences during those times.

I can currently boil my beliefs down to only two things - I feel we are more than our physical bodies and that life involves loving and being kind and connected to others. I still find myself in the "middle" of any discussion, not really fitting in with my atheist family, religious friends, or those who believe in crystals and such. I used to joke that I keep an open mind but not so open that anything could fall into it . I don't care what people believe in if it brings them comfort, as long as it isn't hurtful to others. Who are we to claim any ultimate knowledge?

It's all a mystery, one that has recently preoccupied me, again, since my dad died a few weeks ago. He was my hero and the person I relied on most in life and I miss him so, so much. I'd love to think that he's not just gone and ashes in a box. I want to believe that he is still with me and that I will see him and Mom again someday but who knows...

paddyann firstly may I say I am so sorry for your daughter and the pain she is going through. But why blame a God you don’t believe in for the troubles of the world. If God doesn’t exist he can’t be the cause of all this grief and suffering.
If he does exist and is what the bible and Jesus say he is then God is love. He does not bring this trouble to us he is with us in our pain and suffering. This is not easy to believe but that is what faith is all about.

Meaning we choose to do good or bad.

meaning?

Free will means choice.

Tweedle how exactly does that free will thing work? Did my friends 12 year old decide to have cancer ? Did my other friends 6 year old decide to die from leukeamia ? Your god isn't my kind of guy .If thats the kind of free choice you're advocating .Or were these children eveil and deserved to suffer?
My wonderful daughter who has always lived a good life and has a heart of gold is confined to bed in horrendous pain most of the time and I can assure you thats not her choice .If there IS a god he should be heartily ashamed of himself for the mess and suffering the world contends with.