Canon Andrew Hindley

Oh I don't know, a paedo milk man would probably be all over the papers too. Milkmen have always had a bit of reputation with women as it is!

A Vicar at a church near us used his position to be close to teens.

I was told about it over 20 years ago by a friend who lost her virginity to him in the pulpit age 15, but nothing was done until this year when I think he finally retired. She never wanted to speak against him and nor did the others. Perhaps they felt it was their word against his, or maybe they knew that no one would hear them because they didn't fit the criteria of reporting to the Clergy Disciplinary Measure?

In contrast, our local church was very well run by the (very respectable) vicar, who sadly retired. He never put a foot wrong as far as I know. It really depends on the person.

Anniebach Paedophilia covers a wide spectrum of people. At one end there are paedophiles, who marry, build sustaining normal adult sexual relationships have normal jobs and probably prey on their own children and those round them, but there are others, like Jimmy Saville, and, I suspect this Canon Hindley where paedophilia is hard-wired in and that is the only type of relationship they can sustain.

There is a very interesting research paper that looks into the way a significant number of the most egregious and persistent child abusers who are almost invariably single, because paedophilic relationships are all they can sustain choose professions that give them this easy access to young people and without doubt such organisations are targetted by quite a number of paedophiles who note their priveleged access to children in situations where people assume that the adults can be trusted.
www.researchgate.net/publication/317849376_Sexual_Abuse_Within_Employment_Settings_A_Comparison_of_Work-Related_Intra-_and_Extra-Familial_Child_Molesters

To sentences from the abstract
Child sexual abuse (CSA) is a serious problem not only in the community but also in institutional settings such as youth-serving organizations, churches, and schools.

Data revealed that child abusers who worked with children tended to be better educated, were less likely to be married, had fewer nonsexual convictions, and were more likely to abuse male post-pubescent children

Women can be abusers too.

So I don't think the answer is swapping the gender of the clergy employed, but regular checks on the lifestyle, values and faith of clergy.

It's not just boys who are abused by men, but girls. And girls can be abused by women.

So there needs to be checks to make sure the clergy are not living a double life, as so many ministers of all faiths have often done rather than confess and do the right thing. The CofE is well known for it's bullying culture throughout the ranks of ministry and this is completely opposite to what the bible teaches. Bullies are enabled by those who turn a blind eye and are also bullies.

I have never met a bully in the Anglican Church.

I do not believe men who are pedophiles choose the ministry as a career.

Condemning the Christian faith , those who have served God, loved their fellowmen because of some is so wrong ,

Anniebach

I have never met a bully in the Anglican Church.

I do not believe men who are pedophiles choose the ministry as a career.

Condemning the Christian faith , those who have served God, loved their fellowmen because of some is so wrong ,

Agreed.

I've never met a bully in the Catholic Church.

I don't believe men who are pedophiles choose to be priests, I think the number of pedophiles is equally spread through the population.

I know nothing to the CoE - have no opinion on the last bit, apart from condemning those who serve God because of some is wrong.

Before the (male) vicar retired, nor had I ever met a bully in the Anglican church or known of the damaging hierarchies.

Anyone of any gender who does bully or abuse is not fit for ministry. I have not seen anything on this thread condemning faith, but many are incensed that an organization as large as the CofE does not protect it's congregations or staff.

Why should women have less rights than men because of what men have done?

I don't think anyone on this thread is condemning any one who serves God.

Abuse, bullying... we know those things are not serving God, so no problem talking about it.

All religions have always had a strange relationship with sex in my opinion.

From their inceptions the sexual rules/ regulations/taboos have been a dominant feature. Strict prohibitions are built in to many faiths..... e.g. separating men from women (especially "unclean" menstruating women), extolling virginity, outlawing homosexuality - and cherry-picking bits of religious texts to justify this.

In some ways it is not surprising as the sexual impulse is a very strong one and all cultures have sought to exercise some control in the interests of social cohesion. But the association between sex and guilt is a strong feature of religions; and the emphasis on celibacy in some is a huge problem.

I do think that paedophiles gravitate towards jobs/professions where they can live out their fantasies because of the power they wield - clearly the church is one of those settings. This does not mean that there are not good people in the churches, but just that these settings provide a prime hunting ground for those with paedophile tendencies. And the churches' difficult relationship with sexuality makes it more likely that cover ups will occur as they want to avoid scandal.

I speak as one whose grandfather was buggered by priests in his catholic children's home.

OnwardandUpward

Oh I don't know, a paedo milk man would probably be all over the papers too. Milkmen have always had a bit of reputation with women as it is!

Just ask Ernie, the fastest milkman in the West!

Surely anyone who does bully or abused is not fit for any job or
profession,

No idea what rights are being spoken of here

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Luckygirl3, and I think paedophiles do gravitate towards those types of professions. As I said before, churches of various denominations have a long history of covering up this kind of thing. It's not a new phenomenon by any means. I understand that those of a religious persuasion may not want to believe that, but it's a fact.

I don't think they gravitate to those professions either. As new recuits they are probably full of faith and hope, but then if not well supervised they may give into some temptation. There is always the fact that we become like the people we surround ourselves with.

Counselors have to have a certain amount of hours of counselling themselves in order to practice. In the same way, Clergy could have more supervision to help them stay close to God and there should be something written into their contracts in case they were not able to practice because of a sin of some type that made it impossible to minister because they would be heaping judgement on themselves in doing so.

I'm so sorry about your Grandfather I know abuse was prevalent in those Catholic childrens homes years ago. We can only highlight things today in the hopes that clergy can be safe people to be around and that churches can be safe.

I am of religious persuasion and I do believe it. For that reason I am holy wholly committed to my Safeguarding role.

Anniebach

Surely anyone who does bully or abused is not fit for any job or
profession,

No idea what rights are being spoken of here

You're right actually, though we were talking about clergy.

The rights are mentioned further back in the conversation if you want to read it all. The freehold is why they could not get rid of Canon Andrew when they wanted to and it's the very thing that's not being given to today's female Priests in charge. That's why I said, because of what men have done, the new recruits are not given the same rights that vicars had.

It is plain and simple power, plus having god on your side.What will the apologists make of this one, no doubt some head twisting answer about free will ,god weeping etc etc...

But IS God on the side of bullies and abusers or do they just seem to be getting away with it in this life?

They may do cover ups, but they shouldn't need to because there shouldn't be anything that needs covering up. There will always be those who speak the truth and don't allow it to be cloaked in darkness.

Terribly sad you last sentence Luckygirl

So sorry.

But IS God on the side of bullies and abusers or do they just seem to be getting away with it in this life?

God, SO is not.

Will answer more fully, when I have more time.

God does not take sides

It’s well established by research that some men who are attracted to children and/or adolescents find employment. Or volunteer opportunities thst give them access to the children about whom their sexual fantasies exist. No amount of ‘supervision’ will get rid of their sexual fantasies. They wouldn’t admit them in supervision. They enjiy them in private.
Yes some women abuse children, as described by Charles Spencer in his recent memoir. Let’s not get distracted by this. Most sex offenders, like most violent offenders are men.
We need to accept this and have a proper dialogue about how best we respond to reality. How do we bring up our boy chikdren

Paedophiles will always seek an avenue that gives them access to children. Some will abuse their own children - that’s an easy one. Others will target single mothers - a well recognised pathway. Many will seek employment with children or manoeuvre themselves into positions of trust where they will be seen as pillars of the community. How easy from there to tell children no one will believe them.

Sadly for me, I have come across foster parents who have abused children over many years, always well regarded carers who will take the most troubled children - what perfect victims for their evil perversion. Who is going to believe a troubled child in the care system. And always there is shock when it comes to light, and guilt for us as professionals. Never underestimate what a charming and caring persona these people can present. And never, ever underestimate the lengths they will go to to gain access to children.

I know women abuse too, but it is still much rarer, and I think their pattern of behaviour is different. But I admit I don’t really know as much about women who abuse and I think it is still less understood.

Crossed posts Iam

Anniebach

God does not take sides

Maybe it's about time he (she, it?) started?