Give me a child until he is 7 . . .

Sorry - cross-posted, Smileless.

I think it's different with students (as opposed to pupils), so long as grades are not affected if someone disagrees with the marker's point of view. If a lecturer lets personal opinion influence their marking they deserve to be pulled up on it. Otherwise, though, I think it's fine for them to express opinions - young adults should be able to hear different views, and argue against them if they disagree.

I love cheese Scotland has always had its own system for education,its own church ,its own language its own LAW .
It was a seperate country for many centuries ,our flag was first flown in the 9th century.
Hopefully we'll be a seperate country again,soon .

I hope not paddyann54 for our sake, I want us to stay together.
In your shoes though, I would feel the same as you.

That was why there was an intervention Doodledog, she was 'advised' to take another look at my essay and the mark she'd given (all of this before I received it back) and did improve my grade.

I agree that young adults and children benefit from hearing different points of view and being able to consider another perspective, providing all sides of the 'argument' are presented fairly.

young adults should be able to hear different views, and argue against them if they disagree.

Where does the current "cancel culture" at universities fit in with that though? I'm thinking specifically of various speakers who have been scheduled to speak at some universities but who have then been told by student unions that they don't want to hear what they have to say.

I am not sure what you are asking of me Doodledog I have explained school approach to childrens rights, protected characteristics and expected approach to specific topics which includes history

Not sure how my comment on Transgender Barbie needs bringing to this topic, trans is just one of many protected characteristics and those are what they are as defined by legislation and safeguarding training.

The fact that education should not be assigning ones petsonal views to children, their families and those protected characteristics doesn't seem like indoctrination to me.

I disagree strongly with cancel culture. I believe in free speech, and think that students are perfectly capable of listening to something and arguing with it in Q&As.

I don't approve of the idea that they are delicate flowers who have to be protected from 'difficult ideas'. They are the next generation of influencers (not in the Instagram sense ?) and if they can't cope with hearing anything that hasn't been pre-vetted and sanitised, it gives little hope for the future. The question that always needs to be asked is who is doing the vetting and sanitising, and why?

Sorry - that was to Chewbacca.

I am not sure its as simple as people think, I work in early years and at the moment pretty much every school/nursery has activities relating to the Jubilee. I am not for one moment saying they shouldnt and maybe you could argue that is just reflecting a moment in history but there is not much escape from it.

Yes, I guess that National events are difficult to ignore. I doubt it will have be dealt with in the way it would have been 50 years ago, though. I vaguely remember Commonwealth Day being celebrated at school, but not what happened.

In addition if I had insisted on my children not attending a 'religious' school, they would have had to go to school (primary age) out of my local area. So I am not sure how much choice there is for parents in terms of opting out of some values that they may not agree with.

I had a secular education - state primary schools followed by direct grant secondary. I wasn't aware of being "taught" values, although I expect I absorbed them. The demographic of both schools was predominately white and lower/middle class. There was a black boy, who was the son of an African academic at Liverpool University, and a girl whose father was Polish and had an exotic-sounding surname. At secondary school, there were some Jewish girls, who didn't attend the religious part of assemblies. I remember being interested in their backgrounds and I guess they were my first experience that a world existed outside my own narrow circle.

From my own experience of being a state school teacher, I think that reports that education today is somehow "political" is grossly exaggerated, although I think there is generally more awareness of different cultures in the community as a whole.

We did have General Studies in the sixth form, when we discussed issues I had never really considered before, such as ethics, different cultures and political systems, etc. General Studies had a high profile at the school and with hindsight was the most interesting part of my education. At the time, when applicants for university were interviewed, it was considered a positive that young people could argue constructively - I'm not sure how applicants with very one-sided views got on.

It is an interesting issue. At my dd’s secondary school it was explicitly stated that teachers’ were not permitted to share their own personal political views with their pupils. On the other hand, it’s hard to say what is political and what isn’t. Times have moved on since then, too.

I think some teaching must be very poor, which is a worrying concern. Sometimes bad teaching is worse than no teaching. Two of my GC are mixed heritage. The 7yo has been learning about racism in school. He’s never before mentioned his heritage, even though the school is majority white, but he came home and asked his daddy if he was one of the goodies or the baddies.

One of my small GC was briefly ostracised by classmates because their parent worked for an oil and gas company, which according to the teaching in school is responsible for climate change and will kill everyone. (Never mind that many of the children’s parents roll up to school in gas-guzzling 4x4’s) An official complaint was made to the school about that.

Having said which, I think teachers have a very difficult job to do nowadays. Fifty years ago it was about learning to read & write and facts & figures but today they are expected to impart so much more, from relationships to how to manage money, and have a pastoral role far beyond anything imaginable in the 1960’s.

I am assuming thatVioletsky was talking about state school education. I wonder if "free schools" have to abide by the same curriculum .

I do remember the nun at my primary school sending the black children out on a couple of errands and then telling the rest of the class that using certain terms towards them (I am sure you can guess what) was not acceptable. That was perhaps the opposite to what the children were hearing at home.

Very interesting thread by the way Dooddledog

I can't remember being influenced in any way at my primary school, although I found most of it so traumatic that I may not have taken notice of any influence.

At my grammar school at the end of the 50s some of the teachers were pretty left wing. I can't imagine what my true blue parents would have thought if they knew the ideas I was picking up. Even our very straight laced headmistress (She seemed about 80 to us, but must have been younger than I am now) surprised us once we got to the fifth year. She took us for RE and instead of normal lessons we had discussion sessions about sex, abortion, euthanasia and other religions. I don't think any of that made it home to the parents either.

Ilovecheese

I am assuming thatVioletsky was talking about state school education. I wonder if "free schools" have to abide by the same curriculum .

I do remember the nun at my primary school sending the black children out on a couple of errands and then telling the rest of the class that using certain terms towards them (I am sure you can guess what) was not acceptable. That was perhaps the opposite to what the children were hearing at home.

No, they don't, but they are expected to teach "British values" - whatever they are. They're so vague that they can be interpreted in many different ways. Racist abuse is illegal in whatever context and should be called out.

Deedaa

I can't remember being influenced in any way at my primary school, although I found most of it so traumatic that I may not have taken notice of any influence.

At my grammar school at the end of the 50s some of the teachers were pretty left wing. I can't imagine what my true blue parents would have thought if they knew the ideas I was picking up. Even our very straight laced headmistress (She seemed about 80 to us, but must have been younger than I am now) surprised us once we got to the fifth year. She took us for RE and instead of normal lessons we had discussion sessions about sex, abortion, euthanasia and other religions. I don't think any of that made it home to the parents either.

I think there should be discussions about issues such as sex, abortion, euthanasia and other religions - so long as they are genuine discussions and no particular views are allowed to dominate. Teachers need specialist training to lead those kind of discussions.

I believe the "give me a child until he's 7" quote mean s only that character and attitudes are learned by that age .
Its not some brainwashing device.
I went to a convent school and can honestly say I was never indoctrinated .By an early age though I knew right from wrong ,that calling children of different colour or faiths names was wrong and that I should show respect where it was warranted...now I believe respect must be earned .
I think we all know that anyway ,bigotry isn't something we're born with its taught .usually at home or by other children who are taught it at home .
If education can ,in a school environement ,make a difference then I'm all for it .

Galaxy my children weren't allowed to go and wave the Union flag when royals visited the area
.I thoroughly object to children being taken from school ,handed union flags and told to wave and cheer at people who I believe epitomise the inequality and class system thats a cancer on society .
I would be very angry if my GC get sent home with Lizzies jubilee book .There are better things to spend the budget on than royal propoganda

Yes so that's I think an example of what doodledog might have been getting at, the schools I am working in are doing something that is completely against Paddyanns beliefs/values. I am not saying one is right or wrong, but I think its naive to think there arent some clashes.

Yes, that's the sort of thing I meant. It's a better example than the ham sandwich, as veganism can be explained as part of diversity. I know that young children can have very strong views about it though - I have a 6 year old vegan niece who is very vocal about my sister's leather sofas . I suspect that her mum (my sister's DIL) would have something to say if the little one came home with any sort of watered down version of vegan beliefs, although she'd probably be ok with a 'some people think' approach.

VioletSky thank you for a measured account of what happens in schools and how teachers behave.
The quote is actually originally Aristotle.
No teacher would accept or encourage any child to berate, castigate or insult another child about that child's beliefs or lifestyle. It doesn't matter what the belief is. Just as a teacher wouldn't accept a Muslim child being called names they wouldn't accept a vegan child calling a meat eater "murderer". For one thing teachers are not some regulated body or drawn from a certain section of society, their beliefs and lifestyles are as varied as any of the children's.
Of course there are schools where some beliefs are taught that others disagree with. These are often religious schools and attending them is the parent's choice. It fits with their lifestyle and beliefs.
Would it be possible to introduce such schemes into every school in the country? Well first you'd have to indoctrinate all of the teachers.

Remember the furore a year or two ago when a teacher told their young class that Father Christmas isn’t real?

No, I don't remember that , but it's another good example. The teacher may well have done it because she believed that truth is important and her principles didn't allow her to lie; but if parents want to have Father Christmas for their children, they should be able to do so. I would have been furious.

Is that a question that teachers of primary children are often asked? I would imagine it probably is, so the teacher could have prepared a suitably vague answer , such as 'I haven't seen him, but someone left presents for me every Christmas when I was your age. Right! Can you all take out your reading books quietly, please?'