Support for all who are living with estrangement

I think some of them still think they are the child.

Yes, I think you're right ReadyMeals some certainly are behaving in a childish way.

Saying they have issues but not being prepared to say what they are to the person/people they have issues with.

Some wanting their parents to do all the running while they continue to run in the opposite direction.

Some very wise words posted.
Certainly gives us something else to consider.
In our case there is no way AC would even consider engaging. Anything I suggested would be turned around. Like Smileless I am "trying" to move on. They have won their little battle, that's what it seems like. I just can't be bothered with trying any longer. That might sound harsh to some but it's self preservation for us.
If they consider contact I would be willing but cautious.

Shall we raise awareness together of what we can offer, given that this potential may be given little thought, we are underutilised or have been discarded altogether? It may help our AC/ACiL to (re)focus.

e.g. providing additional love, affection and emotional security to our GC
provide a listening ear for both generations
provide support ditto
additional resource regarding teaching and imparting values, skills and knowledge to our GC
expressing (perhaps) different attitudes and perspectives that can be good for both generations
providing care of GC
babysitting GC
providing respite, if desired, for generation below us from pressures and responsibilities of parenthood
provide advice if sought
act as good role models in some areas e.g. regarding altruistic behaviour and displaying positive, character-building qualities
source of fun and laughter e.g. through playing games and relating anecdotes
be an additional source of time, attention and patience
provide for our GC a link to another generation
help our GC understand more about the continuity of life
encourage GC to respect older people

This is all hypothetical for me at the moment, I must add, as I have given up trying again to reconnect with my d-i-l for the time being in order to recover further and focus on self-care. I suppose that what I am doing here is preparing for the possibility that she and I might reconnect in the future. What might I say? Perhaps some of this ...

No, it doesn't sound and IMO isn't harsh to be honest enough to say 'I can't be bothered with trying any longer' itstormy.

We are all at different stages on this road of estrangement. Some of us have accepted as best we can that we are no longer wanted, and have moved on with our lives without our AC and for many this means without GC too.

As I said in an earlier post, our estranging AC who had the benefit of a healthy and loving relationship with their own GP's know the importance of that relationship.

We all need to "focus on self care" as you are doing Cherries and for some as it is for us, letting go and focusing on what we have, rather than what we have lost has been the way to go.

About 2 years ago, our ES out of the blue called on his paternal GM who he'd had virtually no contact with for at least 4 years.

He told her that they'd not had a decent night's sleep for 5 years (our youngest GC would have been about a year old at the time) because they'd had no family support.

I know, it beggars belief doesn't it. He cuts himself off from his entire family apart from irregular contact with his older brother and then complains that he's had no support.

Perhaps he and other estranging AC should be careful of what they wish for, as their wish may come true.

Also, you posted Cherries about the role of GP's in encouraging their GC to respect older people. How do you realistically think this can be possible when our GC's parents are showing a complete lack of respect to their own parents, their children's GP's by cutting them out of their lives?

Smileless2012

I can well understand that for some or many GPs who have been living with major estrangement for a long period, healthy adjustment means letting go to a large extent, being largely accepting of the situation, being very cautious about building up hope again and focussing on available sources of contentment.

I presume that attempted reconnection would only have a fair chance of being tolerated or better received by the AC if that AC had already been contemplating one or two possible benefits of reconnecting. I presume that there needs to be a spark of motivation already existing in his/her mind otherwise the emotional energy, effort and prepared material will be wasted.

And of course any attempt at reconciliation if instigated by the AC can only have a chance of success if the parents can see possible benefits. This cuts both ways.

As much as we all miss our AC and GC, we cannot underestimate the fear that at some point in the future, we could find ourselves cut out of their lives again.

None of us I'm sure ever envisaged that we'd be treated this way. What once would have been regarded as an impossibility has become our reality and I doubt that the thought of it happening again would ever be totally silenced.

AC need to be aware of the pain and suffering that has been caused and both them and their parents need to be aware that in all probability that relationship will never be the same again.

There appears to be a great deal of "unfinished business" for many of us, doesn't there, along with the challenge of living with much uncertainty.

agnurse, in my case there was no prior request to go NC. The person just suddenly stopped replying to 'phone calls and digital messages as well as appearing in video sessions. She also suddenly stopped initiating any form of communication, even just to express simple thanks for kind wishes, cards and gifts and other non-manipulative and well-intentioned gestures. There was no perceptible build-up, no indication of red flags and no attempt to explain what was troubling her in conversation or through any other means. I gather that this is pretty common.

In this type of circumstance, the dawning of the realisation that the AC has gone NC and where this might lead in regard to future contact with beloved GC can be bewildering, dismaying, destabilising and shocking. There are unanswered and perhaps permanently unanswerable questions. If pressed, the AC may deliver icily an extremely brief response which is very unsatisfactory for several reasons and which sticks the knife in further. Various psychological games may be played with GPs in this position who may then find themselves naturally and understandably having to deal with negative emotions towards their AC that they never expected to feel and do not want to feel. But feel they must.

What happens next? This is not an exhaustive list but it seems that often estranged GPs start using ways of coping such as distraction, keeping busy, trying to avoid thinking about it, overthinking about it, searching for meaning, lots of speculation, hoping for a satisfactory turnaround, hoping for an apology and expression of appreciation, being open to the possibility of reconciliation and reconnection, trying not to hope too much as this could lead to further wounding and severe disappointment, a sense of helplessness, sadness and grief, acceptance that one cannot predict or control the outcome - there are no guarantees - , adjusting or letting go of expectations and hopes, reviving them again, adopting a "what will be will be" attitude, retaining a sense of one's own worth and dignity and investing in other relationships, activities and roles that are rewarding and give a sense of purpose.

I agree with your message, Smileless2012.

Starlady, thank you for your kindness and encouragement. I have no doubt that the current situation is caused by the DP, as we were close before then. ED said that I was her best friend and role model, but there was a gradual emotional withdrawal, until the severance.

In a way I was expecting it as well as dreading it, because her DP used this method of control on her in the earlier stages of the relationship - withdrawal, silence - he once made her drive a 200 mile round trip in order to appease him, after one of their many quarrels. There were aspects of his behaviour which I found very controlling and my DD did not seem at all happy, constantly in tears. It all came to a head when I asked him to leave my house when DD locked herself in the bathroom sobbing and he would not leave. I asked him nicely, offered to drive him to the station etc, but he just wouldn't go, so I told him that nobody liked him, he wasn't good enough for my DD, and that I would call the police if he did not leave. He did then go and my DD emerged a while later, in a terrible state, and then went after him.

I may have overreacted to the situation, but DD was in a previous abusive relationship, even though she was very young, not physical but emotional, where I felt that I had let her down by not protecting her, so this time I was the opposite. She has also suffered in the past with her mental health so is more vulnerable.

I have apologised on several occasions and everything was back to normal with my DD after a week. However, he has not forgiven me, even though he pretended to for a while, because they were wanting money. I don't think my DD felt like that but she has gradually become more and more under his influence. She doesn't have a job, lives in a part of the country remote from family and friends, whom she has also cut off from, and there are therefore no other influences but his. She has gradually become more and more alienated but, still young, my hope is that with maturity comes understanding. That's why I am interested in Cherries' explanation of 'splitting'. DD thought I was wonderful but, as DP became a god in her eyes who could do no wrong, I have gone from white to black in her eyes, there is no middle ground or shade of grey.

Cherries and Smileless, thank you for your incisive posts. Cherries, you sum up perfectly the situation, the feelings, the anguish and bewilderment. I just wonder how the AC feel. It can't be that easy to cut off your parents or even your whole family, can it?

Oh, Dolcelatte, I can't blame you for trying to protect your dd. I'm sure I would do the same. And, Imo, it's obnoxious that sil pretended to forgive you just to get money and then turned against you again.

Of course, "Nobody likes you" is hard to come back from. Sil may have been deeply hurt and embarrassed. The same is true, I suppose of threats to call the police though you were well within your rights to do so. Sil brought this all on himself, Imo, but he probably doesn't see that,

However, it sounds as if he has isolated dd from friends and family as much as he could. That's a red flag, I feel, but I'm glad dd has gotten in touch with you again/is not totally cut off from you. If he's as controlling as he sounds, I hope she eventually finds the strength and courage to leave him. I know she knows your door is always open if she needs you.

Cherries, I'm a little confused. Is it dil you're estranged from or ds or both. If it's just dil, do you get to see ds and the gc at all? Please forgive me if you've already explained all this and I missed it or lost track.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't Smileless2012 - that sums up so much. And yes to those that have said 'conflilcted' - I'm sure that's where all the incomprehensible contradictory behaviour comes from.
As for toxic - I think saying someone's behaviour to me is toxic is fair comment if that's how I feel, but I think a person has to be extremely out-of-order in everything I observe about them before I could brand them as a toxic person.
It sounds to me like your DD has been gaslighted by her partner into accepting abnormal behaviour Dolcelette and I really can't blame you for trying to stick up for her - I bet on some level she knows you were trying to protect her but her need appease him over-rides that.
And this 'no shades of grey' - yes! I see that so much.
Went for eye-tests yesterday. I already have failing eye-sight from optic nerve damage after a major accident - they couldn't find any measurable sight in one eye, and the other is getting worse, and I now have the onset of cataracts and also blepheritis and dry-eye syndrome. I am terrified I will literally never see my ES again even if there is any hope of a reconciliation some day in the future. Feeling low again but I think we are seeing DD tonight so intending to have a quiet day and look forward to that.
Thinking of you all. x

Starlady, thank you for your understanding. I actually think that as time has gone on that I have been proved right in my reading of SIL, but that gives me no pleasure at all. I handled the situation appallingly badly, I know.

Hdh, so sorry about your eyesight. I hope at least some of the problems can be fixed.

Dolcelatte, your intentions were good, and you are handling things well now, obviously, or dd wouldn't be contacting you. Hope things improve soon.

Hugs to you both!

What if you hadn't responded to your D's partner in the way you did Dolcelatte? Perhaps you think that the relationship you now have with him would have improved but is that likely?

He's clearly very controlling and in order to have the level of control he desires, he needs to alienate your D from anyone who may be able to influence her.

He was doing this and would have continued to do so
regardless of what happened that day. Within a week of this incident, your relationship with your D remained intact. The outcome may have been different had you not done what mothers do instinctively and fought to protect your child. She may at some level have resented you for not defending and protecting her and that could have damaged your relationship.

So we are back to the 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' scenario.

I've been thinking about the imbalance of power, for want of a better way of expressing it, that is apparent in these estrangement situations.

Where there are GC involved, the power is in the hands of our AC and their partners. They have the ultimate power to withdraw not just themselves but their children, our GC too.

Another example of this power imbalance is evident in what happened with your DD's partner Dolcelatte. It was her partner whose behaviour was totally unacceptable, but being her partner and already having proved the level of control he has over her, in order to preserve your contact with her, it was you who came forward with the apology.

I'm not suggesting in anyway that that was wrong of you. It's important to take responsibility for our own actions and apologise for any wrong doing, but there was no apology from him. He wouldn't feel the need to apologise as he has control of your DD and so has the power.

His eventual acceptance of your apology which was short lived, was only ventured when money was needed.

I feel very strongly when it comes to thoughts of reconciliation, whether they be a fantasy or the tiniest possibility, that there needs to be a level playing field; a fare and reasonable balance of power.

The fear of once again being rejected, abandoned, cut out of our AC's lives needs to be negated as much as possible so there needs to be an understanding that if a reconciliation is to take place, everyone can benefit.

There are often posts here on GN from GP's who say they are walking on egg shells, keeping their mouths firmly shut and negotiating mine fields for fear of losing some or all contact with their AC and GC. This comes from those who thankfully, have not experienced this estrangement.

This is why a balance of power is IMO paramount especially if there is a history of estrangement. Of course, for those who desire nothing more than to reconcile with their AC and have a relationship with their GC, sometimes that's all they need to be offered, but if there are 'costs' involved, they need to be considered too.

Cherries has already pointed out the benefits to AC whose parents/p's.i.l. are actively involved in their GC's lives. If done right, it's a mutually beneficial relationship but one that can only work with mutual care, love and respect and a proper balance of power.

hdh hope you get some positive news about your eyes.

Dolcelatte - it sounds to me that you were hugely distressed, understandably in your situation, and tried to respond as well as you could as a loving mother of your DD. Can you forgive yourself? You felt bad about letting your daughter down in the past - don't most mothers feel guilty sometimes about not having been perfect nurturers and protectors of their children on all occasions? it's just not possible to live up to the ideal always and in every respect, is it? - and wanted to make up for your perceived failure in the past. You were forthright towards her DP because you see him as an exploitative bully who is a harmful influence on your DD because of his character. Perhaps both she and he really needed to hear you say what you thought at that time that you describe here and it will serve to help them both. Underneath the surface of anger and alienation, your DD may be mulling over your words, tone of voice, facial expressions and actions and all of this could become the catalyst for her ultimately ending this relationship and moving on to form a much healthier attachment in the future. I hope so.

hdh74 - I am very sorry to learn of your severe visual problems. Does your ES know about the deterioration in your vision, through a 3rd party? Is there any possibility that you might be able to get to see him in the near future?

Starlady - no apology needed! Yes, it's just my D-i-L who is estranging us and we are fortunate at present to have regular and enjoyable digital contact with our DS and GC. I suspect that my D-i-L is controlling this contact behind the scenes - e.g. strictly limiting its duration - but at least I and my DH can have it and are able to make the most of it. DS seems to appreciate and enjoy these sessions and it is uplifting to notice how he encourages the little one to interact with and show affection for us. I think that my D-i-L is probably conflicted and insecure and that relatively little of this is actually because of me or DH but to do with key relationships and difficult experiences during her early years as well as certain social and cultural trends.

Thank you all so much for your support and giving me a better perspective on it all. You are right that it is all about power with him. I have explained as well as apologised, more than once, but he’s never accepted it and I haven’t seen my DD for two years now. He clearly monitors her phone and text messages etc. We had a really good and quite long conversation with her about 6 weeks ago. Turned out he had gone out for the evening, which is rare, so she clearly felt more free to talk. My other DDs say the same, that he is controlling, so the outcome would have been the same. DD2’s boyfriend says that his mum would have done exactly the same.

Deep down I do believe that DD knows that I love her and would never harm her. At least I hope so.

So sorry about your eye problems Hdh and wishing you all the best. I am sure that stress is responsible for a lot of health problems so we owe it to ourselves and our loved ones to take care of our mental and physical health as best we can.

I'm sure your DD does know how much you love her Dolcelatte and that you would never do her any harm. It's just terrible that the poor girl is unable to have the relationship with you which IMO she clearly wants, but is unable to have because of her controlling partner.

I'm a little Cherries. I'd assumed, wrongly as it turns out, that you're estranged from your son. You say you're maintaining a relationship with him and your GC digitally. Is this because they live miles away or even abroad, or is this because your d.i.l. doesn't want him and the children seeing you in person?

Hello everyone here. I don’t even know where to start with this but I am so glad to have found this thread because I have no one to speak to about this in real life.

My husband and I have adult children. We have worked very hard our whole adult lives to give our children a good start in life, holidays abroad, a solid family life and we have been very successful in that. They are all degree educated, paid for by us and all married, except one who has separated.

Things went wrong for us a number of years ago when our younger daughter was getting married. She came to us to tell us she had been sexually abused by her eldest brother. We were utterly shocked and completely devastated. We honestly didn’t know what to do. We felt completely lost. We told her we totally believed her and because the actions she described to us were at the lower end of the scale we all agreed that it would be best if we put it all behind us and left this situation where it belonged in the past. We live near our daughter and continued to have an excellent relationship with her and absolutely doted on our grandchildren, minding them a lot and being extremely involved in their day to day lives including providing childcare regularly.

Nothing much was said about the abuse until very recently when my son acrimoniously split with his wife. My daughter brought up the abuse again and this is where the nightmare really began. She told us she had no intention of interacting with her brother again and she was furious with us for how we had reacted when she had told us. We felt this was very unfair because over the years this had never been said. However worse was to come when my other daughter said that our DS had been sexually abusing her for years including multiple rapes. She had blotted it all out until now and the memories were just returning. We literally had a break down. DH and I just did not have a clue what to do. DH felt that we needed to support all 3 of our children that were involved and we did our damnest to try to balance the needs of our 3 children who were affected by this. I did not speak to my son at the time because I was so angry with him but my DH maintained contact with him. My DH did confront him a number of times about his behaviour towards our daughters and told him how angry and disgusted he was but obviously it is our son and he came to forgive him within a few months as he felt was the right and Christian thing to do.

But nothing we could do was good enough for our younger daughter, she kept writing us nasty messages telling us how awful we were being prioritising our son and making threats that if we didn’t cut out our son she would not have any more to do with us.

Our other daughter has been utterly supportive of what we have tried to do and helped us through the awful time our younger daughter was giving us. The relationship totally broke down after our younger daughter had meditation with her father, meditation she had insisted on having but refused to turn up to until this last session where she told her father she would not have any more to do with him. I tried to meet up with her on my own but eventually her demands became so crazy, she started implying that her father was potentially abusive too out of nowhere, based on his actions supporting our son, and after that she stopped meeting with me too. She doesn’t speak to her older sister either.

I tried to keep up contact with her children with birthday cards but she sent us another nasty message telling us we had chosen our relationship with our son over her and not to contact her or her children again. Those children that we love and have been part of our lives for so long being pawns in her revenge on us. It has all been too much. I am so sad that relationship has ended for us and I am still so at sea with the loss of my grandchildren and the pain I feel about the way our daughter has treated us over the last year. If it were not for my elder daughter, the one who has suffered badly with her brother’s actions, I don’t know how I would have survived.

My other DSs are split over what has happened with one of our DS not really properly speaking to us anymore, but he is still in contact with us. The other one, we did not speak to as much as the others before this all started and communication remains the same so DH and I are extremely limited in our interactions with all of our children/grand children now.

DH has cut back on contact with the DS who abused our daughters but not before the whole family completely fell apart. I don’t even know what I am asking. Maybe just for good wishes to be sent our way to try to recover. I have been reading through the last few of these support threads and I have seen some really good advice.

Smileless2012 - yes, they live abroad

I am with you totally about the need for mutual care and respect and for our AC and children-in-law to be willing to drop the power games if reconciliation is to have a chance of leading to a better web of relationships and there is to be stable improvement. It needs to be easier for estranged GPs to rebuild a degree of trust and appreciation that this, realistically, may not happen either quickly or smoothly given all that has been said and not said, done and not done.

That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? "That which is hateful to you, do not do unto others." "Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself." Especially, as we Gransnetters can surely agree, if you are part of a 3 generational family set-up, have implemented a NC policy regarding your parents/parents-in-law for one or more reasons and are having some doubts about carrying on with that drastic course of action. "Count your blessings", I want to tell them all, "that you have parents(in-law) who are alive, loving, caring, interested in being connected (even although they may have strong reservations, understandably) and who are healthy enough to do so."

Welcome to our thread GranandAnna. I am pleased that you found us and want to begin by saying how much admiration I have for your honest account of a terrible incident in your family. My heart goes out to you all.

It is an involved and distressing account which will take time for us to digest and hopefully find ways of helping you, which in turn may help your husband and your children.

I have been posting here on the estrangement threads for nearly 7 years. I have spoken in some depth about our estrangement with our youngest son so I guess it would be fair to say that those who have been on this journey with me for some time, know quite a lot about me.

There is one thing though that has not been known as I never deemed it necessary. Your post has changed that. As a small child I was sexually abused by my maternal GF. It was, as with one of your D's I suppose 'on the lower scale' so for that reason it was never spoken of again and as with your D's I blocked it from my mind for several years.

I began having flashbacks when I was 19, my parents were by that time divorced so I went to my mother, told her what was happening and asked her if she knew what my GF had done.

She was horrified, I'll never forget the look on her face, she broke down and said yes they knew but for the same reasons you have talked about here, chose to do nothing about it, primarily for 2 reasons. One being that they didn't think I'd ever remember and the other, to protect my GM.

The abuse that your other D experienced was just about as bad as it gets; rape and it is admirable that she has managed to come to terms with what has happened and is accepting and supportive of the way you and your DH have chosen to deal with it.

It would perhaps be fair to say that she is stronger emotionally than her sister, but would not IMO be fair for anyone to feel that her sister is weak for being unable to come to terms with not just the abuse, but the way it was, and it seems to be for her, not handled.

For me, knowing that my parents were aware of what had happened but chose to do nothing about it was as hard for me to deal with as the abuse itself. This may well be the case for your D.

There is so much for you and your family to try to come to terms with, so much in your post for us to talk about here with you, if that's what you would like.

I am not judging you or your DH for choosing the path you did and understand that it was with your D's agreement. I would like to ask you though if you can, to revisit that time when she first told you. She was getting married and interestingly it was in the last few months leading up to my own wedding that the memories came back.

Maybe, as she was a young woman about to embark on married life, both you and she thought she was emotionally mature enough to accept the agreed upon course of action. With hindsight maybe that was a mistake, innocently made at the time but as time has gone by, this has festered and become something too big and too painful for her to deal with.

It may be an idea to take the time when she first told you, your reaction and her's to the suggested course of action in isolation. Go back to the beginning and there you may find a way of reaching out to her and helping her as she continues to suffer.

Living with sexual abuse, at whatever end of the scale isn't easy. It can be a life sentence for all who are affected by it; the victim, their family and the perpetrator.

GranandAnna

I don't know how much you know about sexual abuse, but trying to "put it behind you" is probably the worst thing to do. Let me explain.

That kind of trauma can scar women, especially, for life. It is the #1 risk factor for developing a substance use disorder. It can take YEARS to recover from the trauma. I'm not surprised that your other DD repressed her memories - it's possible her mind just couldn't process what was happening. People with dissociative identity disorder (formerly multiple personality disorder) are almost universally victims of sexual abuse. The other personalities develop as a protective mechanism for handling the abuse.

Your relationship with your son is your own business, but he should not be around your daughters and CERTAINLY never around your GC.

I would urge you to do some research of the effects of sexual abuse on women so that you can better understand the trauma your daughters experienced.