Son, grandson, DinL

No one knows what goes on in a relationship other than the people involved.
My concern would be for your grandson who will be very worried and not understand what is happening.
He may even believe he is at fault in some way for the reason your son as moved out.
This is the time to support him making sure you have contact with him and let him know how much you love him.
If your DIL will not allow you to take him out send him letters and postcards to show you are thinking of him.
The adults and their solicitors will sort out the divorce if there is one and there is nothing you can do about that.
As a mother we have to allow our grown up children to make their own mistakes, and only offer advice when asked.
It can be difficult but if we don't want to loose our sons we have to try and get along with our DIL

ps and I am sorry that you have had a difficult time of it and hope you still have a good relationship with your DC despite all.

Relate, of course, thank you trisher!

I agree, and have posted to that effect, that MIL needs to be very careful, be supportive but not take sides - or put undiagnosed labels on her DIL.

Trisher, the point I keep making is that the DiL has been stamped as a narcissist by a tick box on.a website and that it has been done by someone who admits that she has never got on with the DiL I am not commenting on any other relationship in particular but generally saying that if we were able to speak to the Di L she might give a rational explanation and she may well not be a narcissist. I'm sorry that you have had a really hard time. I have said consistently that I know that women can be abusive and I have also said that it is important to be impartial because in the end the grandchild is the most important person in this. I've heard it said that in an argument between 2 people there are 2 points of view and the truth . A lot of disputes are precisely that; picking away to get to the truth involved listening to both sides and relying on empirical evidence. I'm sorry to be so insistent but I would hate to be the person who accuses unjustly and without the unbiased , empirical evidence. I suspect that I am like this because all of my working life was about trying to gather facts, look at evidence and make a decision based on that.

It's a common thing, for people to project their own unacceptable personality traits onto other people. So, controlling people often accuse their partner of being the controlling/narcissistic/selfish one in their relationship. Gaslighting at its simplest.

Loislovesstewie You would think that yes there are two sides to every story. The trouble with that is that these women don't accept that. There is their version and that's it.Try discussing or even suggesting something else and you are immediately cut out of their lives. I spent almost 14 years treading on eggshells with my DiL. I could never ask my DS for anything, buy anything for my GCs indeed do anything that involved them without running it past her first. Then the marriage hit problems and I suggested something she didn't like. She has barely spoken to me since. I was also surprised to hear when they went to counselling that she was accusing him of being 'controlling'. Which was strange as she had made every major decision in their lives together.

Re the Brian Blackwell case - it's my understanding that Manslaughter is a distinct crime and is not considered a lesser crime than murder. Voluntary manslaughter requires an intent to kill or cause abh. Diminished responsibility can relate to a diagnosis of a mental health disorder, learning difficulties etc. Conviction for manslaughter rather than murder may happen if the perpetrator admits having killed someone but without premeditation. This young man admitted the killings but without premeditation.
I'm in no way defending or minimising his actions. I'm commenting we don't know the detail of the trail and to suggest as Tillybelle does that the psychologist (or was it a psychiatrist) who assessed him was a young girl who was manipulated and gas lighted by him, stretches my sense of credibility.
Our Judges and the 'experts' appointed are usually very experienced. The maximum sentence for manslaughter is life. That's similar to a murder sentence and life licence will follow. That's acceptable to me.
I agree with those who say we need to be cautious about what seems to be a growing tendency to diagnose our family members and friends as having personality disorders. Psychiatrists are cautious about such diagnosis and some people have several diagnoses before an accurate one/or not can be reached.
We should remember, some people are not very nice, they're nasty, manipulative and selfish. There have always been such people and always will.

It may be appropriate to suggest that a person could have narcissistic traits or to name the behaviour specifically. Putting labels on a person is a substantial double-edged sword, because everything that occurs afterward can be perceived as part of the "label".

Another one here who doesn't like the term narcissist being bandied about. Google is great for providing information but it is not a diagnostic tool. Describing symptoms/ behaviour to a professional is one thing but flinging around a medical term when a professional has not diagnosed is another IMHO. I have , during the course of my work, met many people with serious and enduring mental health issues. I have met many who over several years have had widely differing diagnoses, from personality disorders then paranoia, then bi polar disorder. All in the same person at different times. If a medical professional who has had umpteen years of training can't make a definite diagnosis then how can anyone with no training come to a diagnosis? I understand that other posters feel that no diagnosis is being made but if you use the term even as shorthand then that is what we are doing. As I have already said I am fully aware that women can be abusive, I also believe that there are often two sides to any story. For example; I have issues with a couple of my husband's friends. They are of the opinion that I won't allow him to go out on boy's nights out with them . It stems from when our children were small and he had promised that he would be in the home at the weekend to help. I worked full time and needed him around. His friends, who were unattached with no children, decided that I was being unfair to him. The fact that I was exhausted didn't come into it. So there are the two sides. Which one of us was right?
Clearly this is a very difficult situation for the OP and the rest of the family .As I said provide a listening ear but avoid being judgemental. When it is all done and dusted you still want to be on reasonable terms with all parties.

Tillybelle Thanks for that. I have learned so much in a short time. I had been a lifetime campaigner for women's equality and for women to be free of abuse, finding out what sometimes happens to nice men has been a real shock. I kept hoping there was a way to help save the marriage, I've sadly come to the conclusion that it can't happen.

Iam64 sorry - missed your message at the earlier time I think the page turned over!
It was in Liverpool England Callistemon

Iam64. MawBroon kindly gave us a reference so we can check.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Blackwell

I haven't been able to do so as yet. I suspect that the lesser charge of Manslaughter was applied due to his diagnosis of NPD, he pleaded Manslaughter but not Murder. I think he was originally accused of Murder but was found guilty of manslaughter.

Clearly I was not there!! Obviously I cannot make any judgements on this one case!! But I do feel very disturbed that a person so very manipulative as this type, a person who is narcissistic in the fullest sense and has even committed murder, can be seen as having reduced culpability because of his diagnosis. To me that shouts of a huge misunderstanding of the whole meaning of narcissistic.

Another problem with Narcissism is the so-called "reason" why people become narcissistic. A theory said that it was due to early nurture style. Either a parent was over- demanding or was distant. This theory - note, theory, has been bandied about a lot. But the research has shown it does not hold up! More narcissists had ordinary nurture styles and still became narcissists. Also more people had the so-called narcissist nurture style and did not become narcissistic.
But people still trot out the theory....

trisher. So well said! The Mental Health Professionals I have looked up who advise about dealing with a narcissistic partner say time and again, do not take them to therapy!

The narcissistic person will manipulate the situation, manipulate the counsellor/therapist, make it seem they are the victim or that they are going to do all they can to make things better, then, armed with what they have learned, they return home to turn the screws of torture more tightly down on their poor partner.

Thanks Trisher - I remember your wisdom from other times btw, - you have made a really important point. Just had to underline it!

"*such people are often very good at manipulation and when it's the woman some counsellors are more prepared to believe they are the victim*"

Bilboben. I would say that you are a complete opposite of most grandmothers and mothers. You the OP accuse by implication of not having a life independently of her son. There is no evidence that she does not have her own life. You are judging her and making very strong inferences such as "You seem to be loving all this drama." There is not one place in the OP's script that shows "love" of "drama".

I think the vast majority of mothers would say they worry about their children if and when their children are going through difficulties of any kind. To do so is normal. It does not imply they live their life through their child.

When so much unhappiness surrounds one of her children you heartlessly tell her:
"Start enjoying your own life and leave them to theirs."

I think you do not have much insight into what it is like to be a mother and grandmother. This grandmother is in obvious pain. Yet all you wish to do is to add to her pain by assuming cruel judgements about her which have no substance in fact. If you cannot be kind, perhaps it would be best if you kept your implications and judgements to yourself.

Callistemon Relate still give advice the trouble is the person with the power needs to want to change and they usually don't. Add to that the fact that such people are often very good at manipulation and when it's the woman some counsellors are more prepared to believe they are the victim it's difficult to get any results from guidance.
As a MiL you have to be careful. As long as you are prepared to play the role they offer you they will allow you to help out and be friendly, but suggest they could do something differently and they cut off contact and accuse you of all sorts of things.

newgran2019. I am very sorry to hear that your life has been overshadowed by a narcissistic mother. I do hope you have learned how to let the "Water roll off the duck's back" and not let her hurt you. There is a lot of advice for this on YouTube. People sometimes call it the "Grey Rock" method.

I understand exactly what you are saying about not having heard of NPD or Narcissism and your giving Autism as an example of it seeming to be on the increase but this being a factor due to increased awareness.

I have learned that the selfish, cruel and controlling behaviour of narcissistic people, who lie, do the most unbelievably heinous things, are insidiously cruel, keep their partner almost imprisoned by not allowing them access to friends and family or money for example, and all the myriads of torturous things they devise to hurt their victim, well - these people come up frequently on discussion and requests for help such as here on GNet. If we had to describe them by their evil deeds as I began to above, it would take pages, so instead we put them under the description that covers just about most of their behaviour and say they are "narcissistic".

Then - along come the accusers, waiting in the wings to pounce and say we are diagnosing them when we are not Psychiatrists! I have found that there are usually one or two ready to accuse without actually reading what has been written!!

I said earlier - no doubt Callistemon did not read it - that the terms narcissist, and narcissism are NOT diagnostic but descriptive. People can look back and see what I said.

We need a short-hand term in order to access help and advice and most people do say that even when they go to the Psychiatric literature they are helped. Nobody is setting themselves up as an amateur in Mental Health, but the lay terms are very useful in finding help. You will find that highly qualified Psychiatrists and Clinical Psychologists use the terms this way, before a diagnosis has been made, to describe behaviour in order to help a victim. How else can a victim seek help? The perpetrator - the one with the narcissistic behaviour - does not arrive at the Clinic and ask to be diagnosed! Diagnosis for a Personality Disorder takes a very painstaking procedure and then the actual Disorder takes an even longer procedure, usually undertaken by a Team of qualified Mental Health Practitioners. There are 10 Personality Disorders, in three Clusters each Cluster being very different from the others.

So do not feel you cannot say a person behaves in a narcissistic manner because the word was in use before it became adopted in the Psychiatry literature. It has both medical and lay terminology.

Thank you Smileless2012for your kind comment.

I am so sorry to hear about your friend. It is not at all uncommon though and the long time she has been subdued by him and unable to see that he is cruelly manipulating her is also not uncommon. So many kind, caring and empathic young women lose the best part of their adult life to these evil and vile creatures. People do underestimate the extent of the problem. Partly because these people have so much power. They seek out and find jobs where they are in command, Teachers, Managers, Doctors, Lawyers, Clergy, and while in public they put on an image of being "that nice man".

I would like to see a program in school Personal and Social Education in which teenagers are taught about their rights and what is healthy in a relationship plus, most importantly, what are signs of a toxic relationship.
For example, my husband would always completely crush and spoil anything good that happened to me. I once sang in a rather good concert. Afterwards, while still aglow with the wonderful music (Verdi) echoing in my head, he came up to me, grabbed my arm and pulled me away from my friends and fellow musicians saying "That's enough amateur squeaking and squalling and anyway the band was too loud." The orchestra was a professional one you would frequently hear/see on TV, the main Soloists from the top circuit, one just recently having sung a main part in Wagner at Covent Garden, and I had sung a minor solo part, which I used to do when younger with another famous choir. However, I beleived him! I thought that I had made a fool of myself!

He actually ruined my life, preventing me getting my qualification in my career so I remained in a lower position, I have it now but so late on... He did so many other very evil things it would take a book to tell you.

I have worked in a charity to help the Victims of these people. As the OP says, the Victims, although predominantly female, are by no means entirely so. Many men are helplessly caught by the most merciless and dishonest women who make others think that he is the protagonist. As her son is being abused by a female, she might learn from looking up Borderline Personality Disorder too. I am not diagnosing, but advising that some of the behaviour overlaps and in trying to cope with it you may get some advice under this heading too. You need all the help you can get.

Meanwhile Smiles, I send you, your friend, and all those trying to leave a relationship with one of these dangerous people, all the love, strength, luck and friends, that they may need. Bless you!

Is Marriage Guidance still operating?

Has anyone suggested that?

Perhaps a shock like this could make them both modify their behaviour for the sake of the child.

Lawyer lawyer lawyer, there are custody and access issues to resolve here.

I had never heard of NPD until I described my mother's behaviour and it was suggested to me
Were you speaking to a psychiatrist and was it his/her suggestion?

Many more children are diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum these days than in the past too, for example; it doesn't necessarily imply a witch hunt, just an improvement in knowledge (and, one hopes, treatments)
No-one has mentioned autism.

If one suspects that a child may be on the autistic spectrum, one would seek further advice and help. One would not just go around labelling a child as autistic without a diagnosis - that would be wrong too.

son's not son'g

newgran2019 and others
I do not dispute the fact that NPD exists - however, what I do doubt is the veracity of a group of Nanapples son'g friends sitting around, making a diagnosis of her DIL by ticking boxes on a questionnaire they have presumably taken off the internet.

A very dangerous path to thread imo.

Nanapples I do hope that you can support your son but at the same time maintain a clear head and a reasonable relationship with your DIL, whether she becomes 'ex-DIL' or not, for the sake of your grandson.
It is not helpful to splash around cod-diagnoses because someone's behaviour may be difficult - we only know one side of the story.

Callistemon and others - I had never heard of NPD until I described my mother's behaviour and it was suggested to me. She sadly has many of the characteristics of that disorder, which have caused me harm all my life and especially now, as she is reliant on us for almost everything. Many more children are diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum these days than in the past too, for example; it doesn't necessarily imply a witch hunt, just an improvement in knowledge (and, one hopes, treatments). Thanks for your insights, Missfoodlove and SunnySusie.

I wish you well, Nanapples, and hope your son and grandson - and DIL too - find the best solution for their circumstances.

Nanapples I have sent you a PM you can access it top right hand corner and click on Inbox.

Tillybelle excellent post today at 15.40. We have a dear friend with 3 young children going through a terrible divorce. They live abroad and she is struggling to manage with few friends and no family close to hand.

Her soon to be ex is controlling, emotionally abusive and thinks nothing of ridiculing her in public. A few months ago she joined an on line group about narcissists and now, for the first time in 18 years she sees that the problem is him.

This has enabled her to rebuild her self esteem which in turn is enabling her to stand up to her abuser. Despite our conversations, it was the on line site that opened her eyes.