Trans Teacher

I thought that, Rosie, but I didn't recognise the site, so didn't want to write it off. It's not based on original research either, but more of a desk-based thing if memory serves, and no ethical clearance was required, which is most unusual for a subject like this.

This is the trouble with googling rather than just asking people what they mean when they use a term, which is almost always more pertinent to what is being discussed online.

Good post Dickens. All this emphasis on whether or not someone's in the wrong body or going through gender crisis, when in the vast majority of cases what's being experienced are the usual changes and questions adolescence brings is beyond me.

This is an entirely unscientific opinion based on my own observations, but I know far more ‘non-binary’ young people than trans ones (through work), and pretty much without exception they are socially awkward and that odd mix of attention-seeking and painfully reserved.

It comes across as if they want to opt out of being like other young people in case they are found wanting. By not doing what the other girls (or boys) do, they can’t be judged by the same criteria. They want to seem ‘interesting’ and don’t have the confidence to realise that they could be so on their own merits, so they adopt that persona and hide behind it. As with all of these things, however, the more of them there are, the less ‘interesting’ they become. Many of them would have been goths however many years ago - it’s the same sort of thing, really. There is a definite link to autism, and probably to confusion about sexuality too. Being non-binary can be a free pass there, too.

Whether they will ‘grow out of it’ remains to be seen. Time will tell, I suppose. I suspect so in many cases, if adults don’t make it too difficult for them to change their minds. At least they don’t go in for body modification or hormones, so it’s more a case of finding a way to backpedal than of reversing harm from hormones or surgery.

I see no harm in the sort of resigned tolerance that adults have had for various subcultural groups over the years, but think that encouraging them towards anything irreversible is deeply irresponsible.

I know none of that had anything to do with the skirt, but we have gone so far off topic now that I don’t think it matters . It’s vaguely relevant inasmuch as it is connected to adults’ influence over young people, I suppose.

Doodledog

This is an entirely unscientific opinion based on my own observations, but I know far more ‘non-binary’ young people than trans ones (through work), and pretty much without exception they are socially awkward and that odd mix of attention-seeking and painfully reserved.

It comes across as if they want to opt out of being like other young people in case they are found wanting. By not doing what the other girls (or boys) do, they can’t be judged by the same criteria. They want to seem ‘interesting’ and don’t have the confidence to realise that they could be so on their own merits, so they adopt that persona and hide behind it. As with all of these things, however, the more of them there are, the less ‘interesting’ they become. Many of them would have been goths however many years ago - it’s the same sort of thing, really. There is a definite link to autism, and probably to confusion about sexuality too. Being non-binary can be a free pass there, too.

Whether they will ‘grow out of it’ remains to be seen. Time will tell, I suppose. I suspect so in many cases, if adults don’t make it too difficult for them to change their minds. At least they don’t go in for body modification or hormones, so it’s more a case of finding a way to backpedal than of reversing harm from hormones or surgery.

I see no harm in the sort of resigned tolerance that adults have had for various subcultural groups over the years, but think that encouraging them towards anything irreversible is deeply irresponsible.

I know none of that had anything to do with the skirt, but we have gone so far off topic now that I don’t think it matters . It’s vaguely relevant inasmuch as it is connected to adults’ influence over young people, I suppose.

I know none of that had anything to do with the skirt, but we have gone so far off topic now that I don’t think it matters grin. It’s vaguely relevant inasmuch as it is connected to adults’ influence over young people, I suppose.

I don't think it's really off-topic though.

For those of us who are concerned that children may be subjected to intense pressure to 'diagnose' their adolescent angst being caused by inhabiting the 'wrong' body (an over-simplification, but you know what I mean) - the male teacher in a skirt could be regarded as more than just a man-wears-skirt news item.

As we keep re-iterating, it's within that context that we are questioning his motives.

If a man turned up for work in an office somewhere in London or wherever, I don't think it would be of much interest to most people, at least - not for long.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Sorry Doodledog but if you think much of the stuff on the internet is "dross" I'm absolutely certain anything I posted would be regarded as below your standards.
The first line of the report I linked to says
Gender dysphoria (GD) is a facet of modern human biology which is believed to be derived from the sexual differentiation of the brain. GD “involves a conflict between a person’s physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify
Perhaps you failed to read it.
As I would have expected you dismissed the report.
It also says
Gender dysphoria is a nosological entity defined when used as a diagnosis under the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) and the American Psychiatric Association (APA). It is a general descriptive term referring to an individual’s discontent with the assigned gender.
I wonder how many answers to your question do you need?

I read the report when you linked to it a couple of days ago.

Have you noticed it uses 'gender' for both sex and 'gender identity'? Classic fudging. involves a conflict between a person’s physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify Sex is not assigned it is observed, which is possible even in utero. Those very few babies born with ambiguous genitalia are not "assigned" a sex as they once were. Genetic testing is done which will confirm whether the child is male or female. Using silly terms like 'assigned' suggests this is arbitrary and at the whim of the 'assigner'

There is no peer reviewed evidence in that report and it uses words like 'may' 'possible' 'suggests'. Not exactly hard fact based is it?

Honestly Doodledog Do you need new glasses. The difference between sex and gender is set out clearly. The research then deals with gender and male and female brains.
It says
In this context, it is important to highlight the difference between sex and gender – two terms which are commonly used interchangeably and yet mean very different things. The biological sex of an individual refers to a person being either male or female based on their chromosomal makeup and their genitalia.2 It is used in a social, medical and legal context to “categorize” people under the two sexes, as men or women. This term is assigned at birth and often stays with a person for the rest of their life. The term gender is harder to define, as it is to do with how someone identifies, how a person fits in with the social norms, activities and attributes that are commonly associated with men and women.3 Whilst for many people sex and gender go in unison, for some, there is an imbalance between anatomical body structure and self-perception. A collective term for these individuals is “transgender”, whilst others will relate to terms such as gender dysphoria (GD) or gender incongruence
I'm afraid I will now ignore any comments you make about any research, your reading is obviously completely incapable of objectivity..

the 'wrong' body (an over-simplification, but you know what I mean)

I do know what you mean, but at the risk of reopening a huge can of worms, I think that it is really important that we examine the meaning of phrases that sneak into the vocabulary. Pressure groups are very good at planting them and before we know it we use phrases such as 'in the wrong body' without thinking, and the concept is accepted uncritically. We do the same with things like 'the NHS is on its knees', or 'the economy will fall off a cliff' - it's not just this topic - but buzzphrases can be dangerous.

Five (or maybe ten?) years ago we didn't hear children talking about being 'in the wrong body' - the concept didn't exist (even though trans-identifying adults did). It has got into schools and popular culture since then, and I think it is important that we consider how and why this has happened, and not fall into the trap of blindly using such phrases without a proper understanding of what they mean. It is all too easy for people to have conversations (on or offline) using the term to mean slightly different things from one another. Also, when a phrase becomes embedded, the chances of people rejecting the concept become lessened.

I'm afraid I will now ignore any comments you make about any research, your reading is obviously completely incapable of objectivity.

Why are you quoting Rosie and insulting me? Is it just a knee-jerk reaction, or did you mean to be rude to her for a change?

Doodledog

*the 'wrong' body (an over-simplification, but you know what I mean)*

I do know what you mean, but at the risk of reopening a huge can of worms, I think that it is really important that we examine the meaning of phrases that sneak into the vocabulary. Pressure groups are very good at planting them and before we know it we use phrases such as 'in the wrong body' without thinking, and the concept is accepted uncritically. We do the same with things like 'the NHS is on its knees', or 'the economy will fall off a cliff' - it's not just this topic - but buzzphrases can be dangerous.

Five (or maybe ten?) years ago we didn't hear children talking about being 'in the wrong body' - the concept didn't exist (even though trans-identifying adults did). It has got into schools and popular culture since then, and I think it is important that we consider how and why this has happened, and not fall into the trap of blindly using such phrases without a proper understanding of what they mean. It is all too easy for people to have conversations (on or offline) using the term to mean slightly different things from one another. Also, when a phrase becomes embedded, the chances of people rejecting the concept become lessened.

I quite agree.

I'm not sure how frequently the phrase (in the wrong body) is used, in fact, by the transgender community. I normally qualify it with a couple of quotes round it - it's a very un-scientific way of describing a far more complex matter than the phrase implies... the kind of terminology that the popular press invents (or discovers) and uses as a kind of lazy shorthand for the benefit of its readers who it maybe thinks wouldn't understand anything more intricate. Or possibly by journalists who don't quite understand much themselves about the topics they are covering!

I don't like buzz words or phrases either - especially those used by said media - mostly because they over-simplify and thus devalue the complexity of the issue they are covering.

The popular press have a lot to answer to for fostering and encouraging these words / phrases which only distort and give false impressions of matters of importance.

Mermaids has apparently stopped using the phrase 'in the wrong body'.
Of course, they did a lot to get it into common usage and, now that's done, they can back off and say "Not us."

FarNorth

What do you suggest the teacher do Glorianny?

.
This was in response to a question from Glorianny, to which I gave my answer but it seems Glorianny themself has no answer.

I'm waiting to find out about the rudeness upthread, and whether it was meant for me or for Rosie. I'm guessing the 'explanation' will be characteristically pompous though .

It's a pschcycological "thing".

Doodledog (today 10:29) I absolutely agree.

FarNorth, I have two outstanding questions awaiting an answer from Glorianny, going back several days.

I guess we'll just have to flounder around in a fog of unknowingness. 🤷

What I find odd is how if Glorianny thinks that people don't follow every link and respond to every post they 'haven't bothered', and if their replies don't suit her she makes snide comments and says she will ignore them in future, yet she is happy to ignore requests for clarification and questions to her heart's content.

Obviously nobody is on here all the time, and we can't all reply immediately, but this is a pattern of behaviour that has gone on for years - ignore posts so the thread moves on and awkward questions don't need answering, insult or laugh at posters or pick on a small point and worry it like a dog with a bone. None of that adds to any discussion, or moves a thread on in any way.

Apologies Doodledog my post asof course for Rosie but was done in a bit of a hurry.

I do find today that the bullies are out on GN apparently in an attempt to make me answer questions.
Perhaps you could all form an orderly queue. List your questions and I will try to answer them if and when I have time. But I do have an active social life away from GN.

Not sure what you mean by "What do I suggest the teacher do?" .
It isn't up to me to suggest anything to him. Just as my clothes are my business, his are his own.

FarNorth

Mermaids has apparently stopped using the phrase 'in the wrong body'.
Of course, they did a lot to get it into common usage and, now that's done, they can back off and say "Not us."

Unfortunately, it's terminology that might have appealed to adolescents with their heightened sense of 'angst' and drama during that period.

Glorianny

Apologies Doodledog my post asof course for Rosie but was done in a bit of a hurry.

I do find today that the bullies are out on GN apparently in an attempt to make me answer questions.
Perhaps you could all form an orderly queue. List your questions and I will try to answer them if and when I have time. But I do have an active social life away from GN.

Not sure what you mean by "What do I suggest the teacher do?" .
It isn't up to me to suggest anything to him. Just as my clothes are my business, his are his own.

I do find today that the bullies are out on GN apparently in an attempt to make me answer questions.

I think you give as good as you get Glorianny, you don't come across as a shrinking-violet.

Being insistent isn't necessarily being a bully.

... I'm not waiting for any answers from you BTW.

I've had a really lovely day out at Kensington Palace so have only just come on here. Glorianny feel free to ignore me as much as you like, but it won't change that claims there are such things as male brains and female brains which is mentioned in your link is debunked regularly. If you have an open mind you might wish to read this study www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/700086#:~:text=And%20the%20answer%20is%3A%20hardly,head%20size%20is%20accounted%20for.%22. Unlike the one you linked to it is peer reviewed, an important part of any published paper.

I'm sorry?

Someone who called me 'pathetic', said I 'hadn't bothered' to follow her link and ganged up with VS the other night picking on everything I said, twisting it and accusing me of gaslighting amongst other things is calling other people bullies, because we've asked you to answer questions? How does that work?

I find it hard to believe that if you'd have been so insulting if you'd realised that it was Rosie's post you were replying to, too. You know that my work involves research, so the insult was targeted, and not for the first time.

I don't agree with you on trans issues, but so what? I can disagree with people on a subject and remain civil. I do pick up on your tactics when it comes to derailing threads and refusing to answer when asked about gaping homes in your arguments, but I think you would struggle to find anything I have ever said to you that is a personal insult. I think that some of your comments are misogynistic, but I would never call you a misogynist, for instance - I address the topic, not the person.

As I remember it was you who asked what a teacher should do if presented with a child whose parents supported his/her trans status. Is it unreasonable for someone to reply that she doesn't know and ask what you would do, since you asked the question? If it's not up to you to make suggestions, why do you think it is up to the rest of us? I may have misremembered, as this thread has dragged on, rather.

No, I don't think you've misremembered Doodledog and like you, I fail to understand how asking perfectly reasonably questions more than once because they haven't been answered constitutes bullying. An unfounded accusation that's been made before and no doubt will be made again.

So, I've been wondering what Mermaids will use to take the place of 'in the wrong body'. Anyone got any ideas or could it be that we wont be hearing this ad infinitum in any form?

We can only hope.

Oh yes they ran as fast as they could from born in the wrong body when people pointed out that telling young people their body was wrong was note most sensible approach.

Not the most sensible that should say.

Galaxy

Oh yes they ran as fast as they could from born in the wrong body when people pointed out that telling young people their body was wrong was note most sensible approach.

But not before they and their supporters tried to destroy Rachel Rooney for her beautiful book 'My body is Me!' which celebrated every type of body, and those in wheelchairs too. I doubt many who insisted it was transphobic had even seen it, with its rhyming prose and lovely illustrations.

The trouble is that when phrases like that becomes embedded it is very hard to shake off. People hear them and internalise them, and they shape the way we think. Look at all the terms used in Covid - within weeks we were all talking about the R rate, social distancing and herd immunity.

It's all very well Mermaids backing off now, but the damage is done, deliberately or otherwise.