Retirement Dilemma

Think to have two properties is best then you have best of both worlds for all family to enjoy throughout the year Visio you or the family home I works for us life’s to short enjoy wherever you end up just don’t favour one daughter or son always will cause problems

I would suggest do not make decisions based entirely on your children's whereabouts/careers. Do you like Spain and want to live there family not withstanding? You have obviously done your homework regarding EU etc so nuff said.

Our own situation was that we moved to SW France in 2005 when my two children had spouses, their own homes and careers on track. Before grandchildren as that would have made the decision more difficult!

We have made a fabulous property here and the family came more often before the grandchildren arrived, after that it was more difficult because of the expenses were much more than before. However I have always gone back to England every three to four months before Covid happened.

In the days before a decent motorway system my first husband and I lived a long way from both sets of parents. this meant that when they came to us or we to them time was set aside for the family. This meant quality time. I lived near my children in England and we saw each other for lunch maybe once a month for a couple of hours. I knew from experience that actually staying together for a few days was far more satisfying.

When the grandchildren arrived on my trips to England I was then embedded with the families to do my share of childminding when they were little during school holidays etc while the parents worked. This was wonderful - days with my grandchildren all to myself and evenings with the parents. Then back to my fabulous life in France. Much better than living down the road and doing a regular few days a week every week.

As they have grown up, as others have mentioned, they start to make their own lives, don't want to 'play' with grandma all the time, they want their friends around during holidays and half terms. And again two weeks here would not be so alluring now they are all entering their teens. I have noticed that when I stay with them a lot of the time I am sitting around finding something to do while they get on with their lives, which is as it should be. They all love me lots and are very glad to see me, but that is short lived! I don't have a problem with that. It just means that when I am there I will spend more time with my friends and visiting art galleries again. I have wonderful memories of those weeks I spent with them as young children and the smile on their faces and shriek of 'Grandma' as I pick them up from school.

It is very important to have your own separate life, especially after being expats. As to living back in England, I would not want to do that, many of us here consider that England has lost it's moral compass, even before this current charade of a government. The Europeans are feeling really sorry for us, UK is the laughing stock, and you don't realise it until you are out of it.

I am sure one day in the future when we are in our dottage we will have to go back to some basic life in a retirement complex in order not to be a drain on my children, but we will say that it's OK because we will have had our life.

OP if you are in your 50s you have years and years of active life ahead of you. So do what is best for you, whatever you choose regarding your family there will be many, many hours, months, years when they will not be around and that time has to be filled to the brim with good things for you. This does not have to be your final move, that can come when you are in your late 70s and 80s!!

There are many of us here in this area of France that are retired with children in the UK, I get so cross when some children persuade their still active and not so old parents persuade them to go back. To my mind it is entirely selfish so they don't have to worry about them being abroad. So what happens when parents do go back for the sake of their children when they are still coping wonderfully? Their children still have their own lives and careers, grandchildren grown up and visit in passing. In fact the parents would have had a better support group where they were living abroad. The parents then have to make a life for themselves back in UK when they probably had had a great life, perhaps for many years, where they were established before. So mean. I also find it really insulting that children who have been brought up by these parents think they know best.

I have followed this with great interest, mainly because it is so far from my personal experience, yet known to me through so many friends and acquaintance. And yes, I completely agree about the pitfalls of 'the exile's dream'.

I think it worthwhile keeping options open as far as possible for as long as possible. As you find yourself leaning one way or another, go with it, think about how you would make that option work.

Finally, once decided, you dig in and make it work. I often think the outcome depends not on the quality of the decision, but the effort put in to making it work. I am sure that people who have lived around the world must have a good understanding of how to tackle that.

Can I also point out, not to OP who has obviously considered this, but others, that healthcare is expensive in the UK. It's just that our taxes pay for those of us who are covered by the NHS, so that it is free at the point of need.

I'm really sorry to have to say this, but I think you'd be foolish beyond measure to return to the UK. I'm not going to hijack your thread into a political arena, but quite frankly, the UK you'd be returning to is broken. It's deeply divided; it's the laughing stock of Europe; it's becoming more fascist every day with people's rights and freedoms being drastically curtailed (though a lot of people seem to blinkered against that fact!) and the NHS is being systematically destroyed piece by little piece. You'd be FAR better living somewhere where both your children and your grandchildren could come to visit you. Just my opinion, of course, you have a lot of pro's and con's to consider.

Returned from 12 years in France in 2014. Decided to live between son and daughter. Son promptly went to live in Singapore. Chose somewhere we liked (Bristol) and very happy with decision to return. Have to work at making new friends . Good Luck

It’s quite a lot to consider. My mantra has always been, do what is best for today, because tomorrow, things may change. Health for example, so people can’t travel.
Money difficulties.
Fall outs.
Don’t want to sound pessimistic, but I would always avoid doing anything which depends on someone else being involved. Do it for you, and your children can work round you.
All the best

A very difficult decision, one we had to make 3 years ago, we are back in the UK and agonise every day as to whether we should move abroad again, but now 69 and 74.
We hardly see the grand children, they or their parents are all so busy and tied up in their own lives, we saw more of them with quality time when we were living abroad!
I hate to say it but UK is not what we imagined it to be, apart from the awful weather, it has been very disappointing and people here have a very different way of life and don't want to hear about the great times we had living abroad! I don't blame them. There is no spontaneity, socialising has to be planned way ahead and people don't mix the same way as expats do on.
Please think long and hard and try it out at your house for a while before committing and I wish you "bon courage" wherever you end up.

I spend most of my time in France, where I have residency, and the rest in the UK. As others have mentioned, Brexit has proved a nightmare. It is essential that you have at least residency (citizenship would be better, but personally cannot face the bureaucracy involved), you also need a health insurance card (don't know system in Spain), otherwise you will be looking at huge charges for even the most basic medical care (you may have this already). We have also had to change th e registration on our car. We are currently allowed a UK bank account here, although I believe that may change. You may have sorted all this already but, if not, it is a fairly challenging, and expensive task. When I am in France I miss my family enormously and, of course, they have not been able to visit at all during the pandemie. However, I think it is useful to think about how it will be in a few years when GC are grown (I don't necessarily manage this detachment myself!), and also how it will be if your partner predeceases you. Do you speak enough Spanish to not be isolated? Do you have Spanish friends who can help you negotiate medical/social/legal issues if required. We live in a very remote (and therefore cheap) part of France and have a small modest flat in UK, so can manage both. The wheels, for the moment, remain on the bus, though am braced for future wobbles. Even though I have lived for years in France, and speak fluent French and have many friends here, not sure I would like to be old, alone and frail here. Best of luck with your deliberating, and hope you make the right choice for you.

Grannygrumps where did you get your information about pensions not being paid to people living abroad ?

Someone once said to me that it’s not where you live, it’s who you live near that counts, l have always found this to be true.

Suggestion return and live in the UK as your main base and to be near to your daughter plus buy a property in Spain so you can invite your son and his family there in the summertime. Remember you can spend a certain amount of time living in Spain or perhaps Portugal without incurring tax. Good luck

The danger of moving back to your home country is
- the relocation place has changed - getting bigger or smaller in population, more or less diverse culture wise, the services offered may have changed
- the governmental system - how has it changed? Become less or more complicated? After years of living abroad, it may feel to learn to navigate a brand new maze
- the expectations about retirement - choosing a place is based on a certain number of benefits and what would happen if you do not get it
For example - I pick city A because it is close to one of my kids but the frequency of visits is not as often as I would like
- the most important one- you as a person have changed. You have matured, grown, exposed to new cultures and mentalities, discovered and adopted new customs.
The person who left the UK is very different than the person coming back.

i always fail to understand why retirees always think that their lives ar not their own? DD/DS/DG whatevers, theyll make their own way in life with scant thought for how the parents are going to cope! that's why they move away/abroad/out! so many parents get suckered into thinking that it's actually their responsibility to provide [FOC] babysitting/accomodation/holiday homes/childminding/somewhere to crash!! it's not! trust me, live your life as if you were single unfettered by the constraints of kids/work/mortgages/debts,-why? because YOU ARE! never let your DC dictate where you live / what size home you live in etc etc do they ever ask you about these decisions THEY make? and do you think for one millisecond they worry how easy or convenient you will find it to be able to come stay with them? [unless they want FOC services]? you've worked darned hard all your adult lives probably. kick back and for once do what YOU want to do!!! they will have to accomodate your circs. for a change! good luck, you'll need it.

I am focusing on you, not your children, in this response. Research indicates that people are very bad at judging what their lives will be like in the future, in particular, beyond 15 years. I beg you to consider what would happen if one (or both) of you was diagnosed with disease common in people 70+: Parkinson's, cancer, dementia, heart disease, stroke. How would treatment and care be paid for, what social care is available, what social support is there, what about care homes? I heard a programme about the work of an English chaplain working on the Costa del Sol. She went from one pitiful case to another of elderly British ex-pats trapped in flats, with no way of even getting shopping or medications and with no prospect of getting the nursing care they needed. In your mid-50s, you may be hale and hearty, but unless you suddenly drop off your twig (leaving the other), you will need to consider how your needs, physical and social, will be met. Once you are infirm, or widowed, selling your house in Spain will be a nightmare. If you are very comfortably off, you may be able to afford medical and social care insurance, but if not, you should think carefully before settling elsewhere. Do you know if you are entitled to NHS and social care? This will also need researching. My school friend has lived in Australia for almost 50 years and wants to come back, but he will have to have medical and social care insurance. Good luck with your choice, but don't imagine you can, by dint of will, escape the usual consequences of age. Consider the worst, make suitable arrangements in case it should happen, then hope for the best and enjoy life knowing that you will be looked after if you need it.

KatharineStJB

My son and his wife and their two large cats live 200 miles away. They are having extensive renovation work done to their house and have been advised by the architect to move out for three months (they both have asthma). They had planned to take a short-term let but can’t find one where cats are allowed and they don’t want the cats to be in a cattery for such a long time. They have just asked if they and the cats can come and stay with us for the three months (from mid August). We have a big house and feel we must say yes but I do feel a bit daunted and would welcome advice about any ground rules e.g. around private space and cooking arrangements??

from the sounds of it they should have thought of these issues sooner, them being so rich n all!

KatharineStJB

My son and his wife and their two large cats live 200 miles away. They are having extensive renovation work done to their house and have been advised by the architect to move out for three months (they both have asthma). They had planned to take a short-term let but can’t find one where cats are allowed and they don’t want the cats to be in a cattery for such a long time. They have just asked if they and the cats can come and stay with us for the three months (from mid August). We have a big house and feel we must say yes but I do feel a bit daunted and would welcome advice about any ground rules e.g. around private space and cooking arrangements??

You need to start your own thread?

I have to say Jaye your point about spontaneity and planning ahead for socialising is down to Covid rather than it being the usual way of life in the UK - I think you would find the same restrictions on your life in many, many countries at the moment. Mixing has been limited (and of course stopped during lockdowns), by this wretched pandemic, too, so I think it’s rather unfair to say people don’t mix in the same way as ex pats do, although I appreciate that ex pats probably form their own bubbles and groups as a form of community in a foreign country. Once living back here, it’s up to the individuals to engage with their new home - join groups, make friends (we will be able to do these things again, honestly).
I feel quite saddened that the whole of this country of ours is being blanket labelled as unfriendly, fascist, racist, etc, etc, based on what is reported in some of the more, shall we say, sensationalist media. Certainly the UK is not perfect, but where is? Every country has something that an individual would not like, and to be honest, there are plenty of countries that are far higher up my list of places to avoid living in than the UK.

Don't forget that your health may not always be as good as it is now. We are no longer part of the EU so long-term health problems could be a very very expensive problem.

Furthermore, how would you handle managing a medical condition, especially serious, in a country whose language you do not master?

Please dont think i am trying to discourage you.
We are placing very common life situations

Thinking very long term, it's good to have family nearby when you eventually get really doddery and by then difficult to make major moves. It seems clear to me the answer is to move back near DD. Hands on with the grandparenting and help for yourself later on. Son loses out. You could, if affordable, have a big annual family get-together in the hot country. Winter sun break for husband. I know a lot depends on finances, also your current age.

I think the idea of two homes, the larger one being easy for all the family to reach, sounds excellent. We moved away from our DC 15 years ago but have recently moved back to be near our youngest DD who has adopted two children. It was the right decision, though we have downsized significantly. We also have a larger terraced house by the sea which all the family can use.
It's made a huge difference to me to be near my DD and my GC.

Hi Nansnet. Does your decision now actually have to be final? Since you are not sleeping worrying about it would it help to feel that if you DID find you'd made the wrong decision you could move again? You probably wouldn't want all that hassle again, but you are still quite young and able so it probably wouldn't be impossible and would lessen the dilemma considerably. I have a son & family in NZ and other children in West Australia whom I live quite near to and hoped to see a lot of the grandchildren when we moved here. I don't. They are so busy with their own lives and the children want to be near their friends so even though we are about an hour away it's not what the want to do too often. Good luck whatever you decide.

For what it’s worth, here’s the perspective of an adult child of retired parents.
My parents wanted to find a place to retire to. They took holidays in the regions they thought might be suitable for their desired lifestyle- some access to city & town amenities, likelihood of weather suitable for outdoor hobbies most of the year, cultural attractions, reasonable connections for travel to see family overseas and across the country, likelihood of finding people to connect with as old or new friends.
(They are in the US.) After a visit to one popular retirement destination, they ruled it out because it made them feel old before their time.
They found another region that fit their budget and lifestyle requirements. It was 45min-2 hours away from anyone they knew, but they found community and friendship because the people were welcoming and they had interests in common. They joined adult education classes, volunteering and other groups to find new friends.
They had decided to move away from the region we grew up in and they’d known for decades even though they had enjoyed living there. They miss it, but not the extreme weather. They still visit every few years and sometimes with us, the extended family, in tow.

For many practical reasons, they ruled out moving to one of the countries their adult kids live in.

They find it difficult to be far from us when we can’t travel to see each other due to Covid, but previously we enjoyed visiting them and exploring their new home region.
Their travel to see us has come with more difficulties due to jet lag and other stresses. (We can’t always take as much time off work or unwind or find space to relax together in our homes which are smaller than theirs.)

Knowing they’d be far from their kids, they made sure to invest in the right level of insurance and keep enough savings to cover high levels of in-home carer support in case they needed it in the future. They chose a home all on the ground floor so they wouldn’t need to worry about stairs or having to move house if they became infirm. They made renovations to accommodate extended family visits.
Do they have regrets? There are pluses and minuses to everything. Being far from their kids and grandkids is painful but we try to ease that with long weekly video calls, postcards, care packages as well as trying to visit in person (pre-Covid) once or twice a year.

As grown ups with kids living far from our parents we can’t take the grandparents for granted as free childcare providers and that’s fine.

What can you do to have your cake and eat it too? What can you do to hedge your bets or change your mind in 5-10 years if your initial choice isn’t what you’d hoped?
What will your finances allow as your contingency plan? Perhaps speak with a financial advisor or retirement planner to clarify your range of options and contingencies so you have a clearer idea of what will make your head, heart and future self happy?

It has surprised me that so many grandparents, having moved to be near their AC, express surprise that the amount of contact they subsequently have with them is less than they anticipated.

It doesn’t matter whether you are moving 200 miles or 2000, After the initial euphoria of having their parents much closer, contact surely settles into what young families can fit into their already busy lives.

I feel it is very easy and tempting to imagine our AC are just waiting for us to move closer to complete their family circle. Whereas in reality, our adult children and their families have been filling their time quite successfully without us. Sometimes, as in this case, for many years.

I feel you need to be clear on your reasoning behind your choices and be very cool headed about decisions you make. Remember the only constant in life is change.

I lived in Menorca before it got too hot for my husband ! Then we moved first to Brittany (where he found it too cold !) and then down to SW France where he died a couple of years ago. I loved both countries but decided in the end, as I had a house left to me in the UK, and visited often that I would come back ....I really do miss especially Menorca, but life alone there would not be great..but it is a beautiful island and I was so tempted to buy a small flat there to come and go ....then I thought ah, I would be subject to paying Spanish taxes, having (after Brexit) no reciprocal health agreement (apart from now, if I became resident (I still have my Residencia which I kept renewed ....but that has now changed also, after Brexit and is more complicated !) and there would be the cost of someone to look after a property ....even in one of those tourist spots like a complex, with pool, etc etc ...and they tend not to be in or near the towns (lets face it, there are not too many ;towns; on Menorca, but I would choose to live in Alayor or Ciutadella as they do have transport all year round (I have a Spanish driving licence which doesn't expire like the UK one does !) it is still VERY tempting .......but my friends say why don't you just rent a property for a month or so at a time (now, of course, if you are resident in the UK you are unable to be out of the country for more than 90 days a year after Brexit !) AND when I have to give up driving there it is not easy for getting around to shops, etc (not that there are many !) but I would still love to return. France, again we lived in a very rural part of SW France and I was ok after my husband died, because I had a car....but some women who were left alone could not drive ...nearest supermarket 10km in three different locations ....nearest train station 12 km, nearest airport almost 100 km .....ok for me, as I drive but no use if you don;t unless you live in a town or a city (i.e. Bordeaux has trams, trains busses and several taxis ...easy to get around and several large University hospitals ) BUT again, I do look to go back but I would have to pay private health insurance and to cover all my conditions (I got several quotes, from different companies ) it would cost in the region of 2,000 Euros a month as well as paying my Mutuelle top up insurance which you must have plus French tax (I still have to pay that as I kept my French bank account open in case I ever returned !)......and what do you do when you become old and incapable ? My husband was in a care home, an excellent one, but it cost me 4,000 euros a month .....the French lady who lived next to us paid only 1,000 Euros a month in the same home, as obviously being French, they have as well as taxes, elderly care, medical ins et al deducted from their salaries (they don't like it but there again, her pension was 2,000 euros a month and the same for her husband ...so you get what you pay for ....you just have to live long enough to get it back !) SO somewhat reluctantly I returned but I love it ...before lockdown, I was getting used to being 'alive' again and not buried in a field ...time enough for that ! but my UK licence is over 50 years old and I would need to convert it back and can't be bothered, so driving is not on ...I deliberately chose the outskirts of a City where I had never lived before, on the coast which is wonderful ...I have an international airport, a world class concert hall with classical and other concerts , a ferry to Amsterdam (been on it to nip to C & A !) busses and taxis galore, and cheap ...bus pass you can use on the Metro ....the other day I went to Durham ...30 minutes and nothing to pay ! taxis are plentiful and cheap ....in fact if you work it out, it is cheaper than running a car ...the only time I miss the car is if I want to go somewhere that would probably take me 30 minutes and can take more than an hour on the bus ,.but hey the time is all mine ! Getting back into the health service was quick and easy ...there are a lot of big University teaching hospitals here....clubs to join, the U3A activities, volunteering for the RNLI, coffee shops, large shops (although sadly with the current situation a lot of those have gone ...and none of the activities I got used to for a few months also went with COVID !) but slowly opening up again .....I walk along the beach, paddle (NO way am I getting into the North Sea for a bit of wild swimming ....I don't care if it is good for you or not !) I have also an international airport where I could nip over to France or to Germany to see my friends ....also direct to Menorca (but you have to take the Jet2 holiday plane to go direct !) High speed train to London (about 2.5 hours) Edinburgh about an hour away ...walks in the Northumberland countryside or Hadrian's wall .......so many things to do and when I get too old for that I will go off to Dignitas rather than use my money to pay thousands a month for a care home !!!! each to his own ! I do have one daughter here, but she hasn't spoken to me for 14 years so hey ho ...her life ! so all in all, best of both worlds ....but although still toying with the idea of buying a flat in either Menorca (I am booked AT LAST !) to get back end of July ) or in France, I think all in all that would not be a good idea for me .....but if you are a couple, and have a lot more years ahead of you, and can afford it after Brexit then go for it ...you only get one life and it is short as I have discovered, having lost four friends this year (not from COVID ..) take each day as it comes ...we had a friend who used to say No one is promised tomorrow and that is sadly so very true !!! Good luck