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child taken abroad bu son's x partner

(59 Posts)
whogoesthere Mon 21-Aug-23 22:00:39

Any advice welcome, my son's x has taken my grandson abroad without notfying him, we only found out from `grandson that he wasgoing on holiday when we last saw him.My son wants to report her for child abduction-is this the right thing to do?He has a FaceTime call with the child every week but last weekend it did not happen and also i wanted to send some things for the child and she replied to my message saying she was away for the next 2 weeks but again not informing the childs father.

Visgir1 Tue 22-Aug-23 08:27:31

Who had the Childs Passport obviously the Mother.
So she can do this for a holiday.
Just sounds like poor communication between parents.

Freya5 Tue 22-Aug-23 08:34:11

Glorianny

If. she has full custody of the child she has a perfect right to take him wherever she wants to. One Facetime call a week isn't much really. If your DS had joint custody and the child spent time with him every week he might have a case. If he really wants to play a bigger role he should apply to the court for joint custody.

Permission is required of Everyone who has parental responsibility before taking a child abroad. Taking a child abroad without permission is child abduction. Depends also on a child arrangement order, if child lives with you.
www.gov.co.uk

maddyone Tue 22-Aug-23 09:55:03

Thank you freya. I already said this upthread but it was ignored.
So I will repeat,
Taking a child abroad without the consent of both parents is abduction.
No doesn’t sound like abduction about it.
It is abduction.

annodomini Tue 22-Aug-23 10:12:19

There's a lot left out of the OP. my son's x has taken my grandson abroad. Yours son's ex-what? Wife? partner? What is her status? You don't even refer to her as the boy's mother which we have to assume she is. The weekly face time contact with the father tells me that the mother is the custodial parent. When OP needs to send some things for the child, it's the mother she contacts.
Frankly, I'd love to hear the ex's account of this situation.

icanhandthemback Tue 22-Aug-23 10:13:03

Yes, Freya and Maddyone, you are quite right. Legally it is abduction. However, unless there is a situation whereby the child is not going to be returned or the child is in danger, I suspect that the police would not do much until after the return date.
I suspect that making a big thing of this on its own, without starting the route of court defined access, will set up an even bigger risk. If the ex won't go to mediation, then the courts will see that there is a problem and will be more than happy to help come to a suitable arrangement. My son had to do this with his ex partner. If your son is on the certificate, he has parental rights. Today the courts don't talk in terms of custody, they talk about the resident parent and without a court order, if your son decided to keep his son after an access visit and not return him, whilst an ill-advised thing to do, the ex wife would have to go to court to get the child back. It just isn't as clear cut as it used to be but as a child who was abducted by her father for over a year, let me tell you the repercussions from that action is horrendous and effects inter family relationships for a lifetime.
Your son's soliticitor is quite right, legal action won't necessarily make his ex change. There is always illness which can be used to halt a child's visit and a host of other excuses which would mean a load of court appearances with everyone getting more bitter as time goes by. Far better to try to resolve this with as little acrimony as possible taking the view that it is the child that matters most into account. Sometimes it just takes a father to ask how he can help make things easier for the wife in arranging access rather than just demanding their "rights".

maddyone Tue 22-Aug-23 10:15:04

It doesn’t matter what his story is, if he didn’t give permission for his child to be taken abroad, it’s abduction.
Short of his being in prison.

maddyone Tue 22-Aug-23 10:17:11

Good post icanhandthemback.

March Tue 22-Aug-23 15:32:58

After reading the last few threads of the OP it seems her son 'wasn't around' for a while and contact had to made through ex DIL which didn't happen.

Adding the weekly facetime calls but no visits he has with his children there seems to be a big chunk missing.

Callistemon21 Tue 22-Aug-23 15:55:35

maddyone

Thank you freya. I already said this upthread but it was ignored.
So I will repeat,
Taking a child abroad without the consent of both parents is abduction.
No doesn’t sound like abduction about it.
It is abduction.

He may not be named on the birth certificate as the father.

Callistemon21 Tue 22-Aug-23 16:01:50

maddyone

If a child is removed from it’s country of residence without the consent of both parents it’s abduction. That is a fact that I’m all too aware of although I actually wish I wasn’t!

Has the child simply gone on holiday for two weeks and will be returning? Do we actually know this? It’s still abduction if the father wasn’t consulted, but if the child is definitely returning it’s not too big an issue.

However assuming the child returns, I would advise that steps are taken to ensure the passport is lodged in a safe place so that proper permission is sought in future.

I did ask maddyone, on the assumption the mother may not be British or may have dual nationality, if she might have returned to her home country with the child, in which case it needs to be investigated.

If it's a holiday then reporting the mother to the authorities might lead to even more strained relations between the parents.

Hithere Tue 22-Aug-23 16:05:42

The person we are talking about is the ex-dil and mother of the child

The fact that OP refers her as ex of son speaks volumes

Callistemon21 Tue 22-Aug-23 16:12:24

Looking at your previous threads, whogoesthere, it seems to have been an acrimonious divorce between your DS and DIL.
Yes, she should have asked him about taking the little boy on holiday out of the country, perhaps she didn't think or thought your DS might make things difficult for her and stop the holiday.

My advice would be for him not to do anything, welcome them back but mention what should happen in future.

It would be better for all of you, especially the child, if your DS and ex-DIL could maintain a cordial relationship.

Iam64 Tue 22-Aug-23 16:17:37

Callistemon’s advice mirrors the suggestions made by many posters. It’s good advice

MercuryQueen Tue 22-Aug-23 19:55:01

maddyone

It doesn’t matter what his story is, if he didn’t give permission for his child to be taken abroad, it’s abduction.
Short of his being in prison.

Assuming he’s on the birth certificate. He may not be

maddyone Wed 23-Aug-23 00:13:58

Yes, I understand and accept that if the father isn’t on the birth certificate, that changes things because he has no parental responsibility, I think. I will check, I know someone who will certainly know the law on this.
However posters are saying the parents were married and so that would mean the father will have parental responsibility, even if he has chosen not to have much to do with the child, or if the mother has denied him the opportunity to have much to do with his child.
The bottom line is, assuming both parents have responsibility for the child, that consent must be sought before a child is taken abroad, and whether we like it or not, the law states that removal of a child from the country without consent of both parents, is abduction.

MercuryQueen Wed 23-Aug-23 02:33:35

I don’t know what the laws are in the UK, but in Canada, if they divorced prior to the child’s birth, he wouldn’t automatically be in the birth certificate. In some provinces, he has to sign the birth certificate, regardless of marriage.

I think this situation highly depends on the details. If the court has refused him parental rights, or has granted her permission to travel abroad with the child, normal rules aren’t in play. And since the OP hasn’t answered any questions, it’s impossible to know. I’m not sure if the father even has visitation from the OP, other than FaceTime calls, and we don’t know if that’s a courtesy on the mom’s part or what.

Iam64 Wed 23-Aug-23 08:04:55

maddyone, I’ll accept any info you return with on the law because I know it will be correct.
Being married ensures the birth father has parental responsibility. I’ve never known PR refused to a biological father who applies for PR, even some years after the birth of the child.
Most parents manage the ordinary 2 week trip to Spain/Greece etc for a summer holiday without the need for formal permission from the other parent. It’s in those more rare and distressing situations where parental conflict continues after separation the law is involved. In those situations, it’s often the case that one (or both) parents are unable to cooperate.

It’s different if one parent wants to move to another country to set up home there with the children. That is complicated.

icanhandthemback Wed 23-Aug-23 09:57:28

Most parents manage the ordinary 2 week trip to Spain/Greece etc for a summer holiday without the need for formal permission from the other parent

Iam64, whilst that is true, the legal aspect remains the same. Some parents are just more flexible than others.

In my case, I had residency of our children, father had no access given by the courts after a lengthy court action and yet, when I wanted to take the children out of the country, apply for their passport, etc, I had to get his permission. He hadn't seen his children for years or ever paid a penny in maintenance but he had that whip hand over us. He would never have known if we had gone abroad without his permission but in some countries (like Costa Rica) if something happened to us which we had to stay for more than 30 days, we would have had to have his permission to take the children back home. I could just see that would give him sadistic pleasure to refuse that permission so made sure we did the right thing as I knew the courts would have backed us if he'd been unreasonable before we left Blighty!

maddyone Wed 23-Aug-23 10:03:01

Good morning.
Yes, the vast majority of people manage an annual holiday without any problems at all and most manage access to both parents, if desired, also without problems. The difficulty arises when there is conflict between the parents. I know that removal of a child from the country, even very short term, without the consent of both parents, is abduction under the law. I doubt there would be a prosecution if a parent simply went for a holiday and returned as expected though.
Unfortunately we don’t know the circumstances of the family of the OP. We don’t know if the father has got parental responsibility or if he even sees his child regularly. We don’t know if the mother is preventing him from seeing his child regularly or if any settlement of the situation has been sought from the court.

All I know is the straightforward law which states that removal from the country of a child without consent of both parents who have responsibility, is considered abduction. But according to the particular circumstances the courts may take different views on the application of the law. As I said above, providing the child was returned in the usual couple of weeks, I can’t really see the courts being much interested, but I may be wrong on that.

maddyone Wed 23-Aug-23 10:03:26

But I will check as soon as I am able.

Hetty58 Wed 23-Aug-23 10:14:52

whogoesthere, it just seems like a great big fuss about nothing to me. The mother may well be unaware of the law. Your son's wish to report her just seems vindictive.

Callistemon21 Wed 23-Aug-23 11:03:23

Hetty58

whogoesthere, it just seems like a great big fuss about nothing to me. The mother may well be unaware of the law. Your son's wish to report her just seems vindictive.

I agree.

Perhaps she just didn't think or perhaps she thought he'd stop the holiday just to be awkward.

Germanshepherdsmum Wed 23-Aug-23 11:43:13

Judging by the reaction, I think you’re right Callistemon - he would have tried to stop the holiday. If you only have a weekly FaceTime call with your child, why make such a fuss about them having a summer holiday? Sheer nastiness I think.

Theexwife Wed 23-Aug-23 11:43:22

If your son is doing this just to be nasty it does not bode well for the future. When the grandson is old enough he could refuse to see his father or you if you upset his mother.

SpanielNanny Wed 23-Aug-23 16:09:55

I’m presuming you’re in the UK, do they have a Child Arrangement Order? If it was decided that the child should live with their mother, they can be taken abroad for up to 28 days, without the consent of the father.

I hope I’ve attached the screen shot from the government website correctly.