Is it ethical to require a vaccine passport for entry to a club?

It's not about being an anti vaxxer in many cases, it's about being scared. A young woman in my area appears to have died from blood clots following the AZ vaccine, she was relatively young, no health conditions, not obese , the likelihood is if she had caught covid she would still be here for her children. Yes it's a tragic rare case, and yes we need to measure the risk between catching covid and yes I have had both vaccines. What about the friends and families of people like that women, should they be blackmailed into having the vaccine or could possibly there be a better approach.

So the medically vulnerable get to come in because they are deserving, even though they are just as likely as any unvaccinated person to give you COVID?

Alegrias1

So the medically vulnerable get to come in because they are deserving, even though they are just as likely as any unvaccinated person to give you COVID?

Yes, but that is unavoidable, isn't it? You can't blame someone for not being able to take a vaccine, for health reasons.

They can get a different vaccine Galaxy. There are 4 choices available. I know they're not all freely available in all areas, but I think 3 of them are.

GagaJo

Alegrias1

So the medically vulnerable get to come in because they are deserving, even though they are just as likely as any unvaccinated person to give you COVID?

Yes, but that is unavoidable, isn't it? You can't blame someone for not being able to take a vaccine, for health reasons.

But you are blaming someone who hasn't taken it because they're frightened. So it is discriminatory.

What about other places? Should the unvaccinated wear special badges so that we can avoid them in Tescos?

Definitely not ethical but obviously sensible.

So we can do unethical things if some of us think they are sensible?

Alegrias1, I'm frightened of things too. One thing is a full-blown phobia (I've spent a lot of money trying to overcome it, very unsuccessfully) but I still do it.

Many of the drugs we are treated with, for cancer, for example, can be VERY toxic. But because they can be life saving, we screw up our courage and take them. This pandemic is the most serious thing any of us will ever experience. We all have to do our bit. Other than those that can't for medical reasons.

If there is ever to be any normality of life back, we all have to do our bit. Not just 55% (or whatever) of us, because that will just cause the problem to get worse.

As I said, it you are an anti vaxxer, you have a choice. It shouldn't be mandatory, but then you accept your life will be limited at times.

That certainly wasnt the case though was it, perhaps right be possible to talk to some of these frightened people rather than letting Johnson of all people introduce legislation around bodily autonomy. I wouldnt trust him with my goldfish, if I had one, let alone an issue as complex as this.

You can choose between paper or on the phone so no need fir a smart phone. We chose paper passports which were sent to our address a couple of days after we applied.
I said earlier that it’s my understanding that this is required in many parts of Europe to get into bars restaurants cafes etc. They seem perfectly happy to do so because it protects themselves and everyone else.

As others have said, not having a smartphone isn’t a problem, a paper version is available.

Sometimes, for the greater good, we have to do things we may instinctively not wish to do. During the last war, that may have been the case. This is a war against Covid, and in order to defeat it (as far as we can) we may have to do things we do not agree with, such as wear a mask (for some people this is a great infringement of their rights) or get a vaccination. Vaccination is complicated by the fact that a very tiny minority may be affected adversely by the vaccine. I don’t think anyone was adversely affected by wearing a mask. However for the greater good, it seems to me that vaccination passports are necessary at this time. Hopefully not forever though.

You have a paper passport and a photocard driving licence already. A physical vaccine ID card would not be difficult to implement.

Or forge.

If it has a QR code on it, anyone checking it would have a scanner (can get them as aps on phones). It'd be easily checked.

vegansrock

What’s the betting there will be loads of fake vaccination passports - just like age ID youngsters have to have- a quick glance by a doorman is all they get. Not difficult to get around.

Unfortunately.
France Info are saying that forty false digital vaccine papers have been found. They came from a pharmacist who sold them at € 250 each.

The forgers are way ahead of it already Gagajo .

muffinthemoo

I am fine with with people who choose not to be vaccinated being denied participation in public spaces. Proof of vaccine, or proof of medically necessary exemption, or stay at home.

Many countries require exactly this proof for children to attend school. I think we could fairly require it for adults to attend Sainsburys. The plague bearers can order their shopping in, or get a clue and get vaccinated like the rest of us.

Someone else’s right to not be vaccinated cannot trump my right to not be coughed over and infected when I’m trying to buy a loaf.

"The plague bearers can order their shopping in, or get a clue and get vaccinated like the rest of us. Someone else’s right to not be vaccinated cannot trump my right to not be coughed over and infected when I’m trying to buy a loaf."

If you're so confident the vaccine renders people incapable of being plague bearers, why are you so afraid that someone might cough over you.

Your post is the most judgemental, unkind thing I've ever read on here. Utterly vile.

It would be easy to take a screen shot of someone else’s QR code or PCR test result, as happened at the football.

Well, I just can't wait to be in a crush of sweaty people all waving their arms around to a musical "music" and looking as if they're on another planet.

I've applied for my certificate already.

Unmusical music!

Autocorrect thinks it's an oxymoron

MoorlandMooner

muffinthemoo

I am fine with with people who choose not to be vaccinated being denied participation in public spaces. Proof of vaccine, or proof of medically necessary exemption, or stay at home.

Many countries require exactly this proof for children to attend school. I think we could fairly require it for adults to attend Sainsburys. The plague bearers can order their shopping in, or get a clue and get vaccinated like the rest of us.

Someone else’s right to not be vaccinated cannot trump my right to not be coughed over and infected when I’m trying to buy a loaf.

"The plague bearers can order their shopping in, or get a clue and get vaccinated like the rest of us. Someone else’s right to not be vaccinated cannot trump my right to not be coughed over and infected when I’m trying to buy a loaf."

If you're so confident the vaccine renders people incapable of being plague bearers, why are you so afraid that someone might cough over you.

Your post is the most judgemental, unkind thing I've ever read on here. Utterly vile.

I’m not confident of that, because I’m not a moron and it has been agreed from early tests by all parties involved in developing and administering the vaccines that they absolutely do NOT render people “incapable” of passing the disease. There is much evidence that they reduce the rate of transmission, but they do not by any means eliminate transmission.

I still want the force of the law to be used, as it has been for almost 18 months of social restriction, to ensure that the risks of transmission are lowered using the best tool available to us, which right now is vaccination.

I have had Covid twice. I do not want a third or fourth dose. I do not give a fig whether that makes me “vile” or “unkind” to not want some tinfoil hatted anti vaxxer to make me sick again. I am judgemental of people who put their Facebook conspiracies before the safety of their fellow citizens. I make absolutely no apology for that. Those who for reasons of medical necessity cannot be vaccinated are even more vulnerable than I am. Should they be kept hostage at home because those who could be vaccinated can’t be bothered? Is that fair?

MoorlandMooner 'Your post is the most judgemental, unkind thing I've ever read on here. Utterly vile.'

Stick around. It can get a LOT worse.

I think it must be the heat that’s getting to me but I’m beginning to lose track of who is supporting what and why. Or not supporting things.

It's probably descending into what GNHQ would call a bunfight.

Muffinthemoo. I am sorry to hear you've had Covid twice and hope you've made a good recovery.

We agree that evidence shows it is possible for those unvaccinated and those vaccinated to pass on Covid.

I will be honest and face a barrage here.....I have chosen not to have the vaccine. I have my reasons which are nothing to do with facebook conspiracy theories - I don't have facebook.

It's also not because I couldn't be bothered and I have never worn a foil hat - yet! My reason is because I saw my grandmother and mother die of blood clots and, whilst I would much rather not die just yet, if I have to I will take my chance of dying of Covid rather than go through the agony they did.

I will certainly reconsider my decision when it is possible for me to choose the vaccine I am given.

I live in a remote place, with very low Covid rates. I encounter very few people from whom to catch the virus or pass it on. Having read the data I have made a reasoned judgement and will face the consequences.

It might be the wrong decision, but it is my decision. I am not relying on anyone else having the vaccine to protect me. I follow all other guidelines to the letter when I go out, mask, distance, sanitizer. And when I say go out...I mean I walk alone in the hills, swim alone in the sea or go to the supermarket weekly.

If because I don't have a vaccine passport I am unable to go anywhere at all including my nearest supermarket then that is how I will have to live. I'm not sure it is fair as both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can pass on the virus....and perhaps it could be true that a vaccinated person without a mask who goes to the pub or football or clubbing might be more likely to pass on the virus to me at the supermarket, than me them. Still, I will fully accept the decision and live by the rules.

To be called a 'plague bearer' and judged before you know my story is very harsh.

MoorlandMooner, you have considered the situation and made a decision based on family history. That is your right and quite probably the best decision. I don’t know your age, but the fact that you are writing on here, and the description of your lifestyle suggests you are older, like most of the rest of us on here. It sounds as though you don’t have a huge risk of contracting Covid from the lifestyle you describe. Nonetheless you could consider speaking to your GP by phone and see if it would be possible for you to have a vaccine that is not the AZ vaccine. I had Pfizer, very few side effects (a sore arm and a mild headache, plus feeling rather tired.) Anyway, that is up to you. When most of the rest of us are vaccinated, that will help to protect you and others who cannot have the vaccine. Since it sounds as if you are unlikely to go clubbing, I don’t think you’ll miss a vaccine passport for that, but you may need one if you wish to go abroad in the future.