Denied contact with grandchildren

Perhaps she's still wanting to create an appearance of peace making by involving her brother but it is unfair, although quite natural if they have a good relationship.
Using the Father's Day incident makes it look like she is all for appearances within the family because if she made the gift as a genuine loving gesture, then why would she be refusing to resolve the situation because of his refusal to accept ?
Pride is cold comfort and perhaps she didn't expect his reaction especially if this is the first time she has ever had the cold shoulder from either of you.
I hope she doesn't succeed in isolating anymore family members or causing more divisions within.

I'm so sorry this is escalating to such an extent Debcz. How terrible for you and your husband. Do you still have rights over the barn, or do your daughter and son-in-law own it outright? That may make a difference on what you decide to do. Of course do get legal advice, but mull everything over very carefully before you act. There still may be a chance that this could de-escalate and be resolved in time but if you do take any sort of legal action that may make things irrevocable. So sorry, it's a difficult and sad situation.

So sorry Debcz for what you are going through. Nightmare. [flowers ]

Debcz, glad you are getting the legal perspective. Hope very much you don't do anything for a time, give space for the situation to calm down a little. She has enlisted the help of her brother not you, that would surely indicate she wants to sort things out. If possible it would be better just talking to her. Sorry you are going through this. Whilst a lot of people can give well meant advice, afraid there is no easy solution to estrangement, you have to be there to understand.

You need to know where you stand legally to set your minds at rest. I hope things work out.

It seems the situation has gone from bad to worse, Deb. I am so sorry. Hugs!

I'm also sorry D has pulled DS into this, only to refuse his suggestion of a sit-down. It is possible a sit-down wouldn't work at this time. Like agnurse, Ive heard of situations where this effort just ended up in a shouting match, etc. But why did D reach out to DS if she isn't going to take his advice? Did she just want to cry on his shoulder? Is she hoping he'll relay messages to you about how she's feeling (as he already seems to be doing) since she won't talk with you herself? That suggests to me she does want some contact, after all, if only to express her feelings. But, IMO, it's immature of her to involve a 3rd party/her brother.

Perhaps the gift was also an overture and she was hurt when it was rejected. Maybe she was trying to begin to rebuild the relationship between you two and herself before including the kids. But after the way she has been acting, how could she expect you to know that?

Still, I feel she does want to resolve the issues (whatever they may be) and resume contact. So, IMO, there's hope. But I think it is going to take a while.... Patience...

Meanwhile, I'm glad your seeing a solicitor. However, like Peony, I think you should just hear what they have to say and mull it over for a while. Please don't act in haste or anger.

As for DS, I think he should let D know he can't be in the middle of this. But that's up to him, of course.

"I gather that as you have such a knowledge of estrangement, that you are either still estranged or possibly reconciled with your family."

Peony, the only "knowledge of estrangement" I have is what I have seen among friends or read in forums like this one. But while Ive heard/seen some common threads, I agree with you that all situations are different in some ways. Also, I agree that it must be hard to be living so close and yet be estranged. The saying "so near and yet so far" comes to mind (sigh).

From what little our son has said to us she was trying to get him on her side.
She told him she hasn’t stopped all contact. We are making it up for some reason.
I think he feels he needs to see for himself what is going on.

Great idea seeing the solicitor. You’re acting impeccably. She will tie herself into knots to make you look bad and then show her true colours.

That's what our ES did with his brother Debcz it got so bad that at one point we thought we'd lose him too. Thank God he saw through it.

I’ve just watched the video on the coping with narcissistic adult children discussion here on gransnet.
Absolutely enlightening.

Hey Op. hope you’re OK. Did you manage to see a solicitor? Has your son been in touch?

So sorry, Deb. It sounds as if your D is playing games and, yes, trying to get DS on her side. Poor DS! I'm so sorry!

Yes have seen solicitor and got legal advice.
DS coming here tomorrow. Will see what happens. Not much hope.
Thanks for the good wishes.

. Good luck.

Good luck today Debcz hopefully this will be resolved today.

Went over to talk to them as DS requested us to. Sil stands aggressively. We can’t now see the kids as we are dangerous and can’t be trusted to be alone with them. They may allow supervised contact at some unspecified date!
Good point, DS not taken in by them thank god.
Back to solicitors next week to get them out. Need to do so for our sanity I think.
Thanks for your support and kind thoughts everyone.

"They stayed for 2 years,living rent free. Their second son was born whilst they lived with us and we have undertaken a large amount of child care. They moved out in January, into the barn across the yard from us but still expected regular support with childcare including the children staying with us for 2 nights whilst they attended his mother’s funeral in Durham last month."

"We can’t now see the kids as we are dangerous and can’t be trusted to be alone with them."

Sigh. It sounds as if something happened between the funeral and now. I can hardly believe it was about your going in to see the play rehearsal even if that's what set them off.

Do you have any idea what behavior they see as "dangerous?" Did either of them say at any point? Is there something you and DH can change so that they won't see you that way? If not, then I'm glad you're seeing about getting them out. It will prolong the estrangement, of course, but that seems to be happening, anyway.

We have been well and truly used and taken for a ride.
I’ve been researching narcissistic adult child since seeing the video from the link here on gransnet.
What is happening follows the patterns described almost perfectly.
The relationship has been totally one sided, based on what they could get from us and use us for.
I can see this clearly now. Only wish I’d worked it out sooner
It might have saved this heartbreak.
My heart goes out to everyone else in this situation

Debcz, yes you have been taken for a ride! Your d and sil have completely used you, and now that they have got what they want you don’t matter!
I really hope that your solicitor has found a way of getting them out! Hopefully there may be grounds to stop them making a huge profit from your generosity.

You are no doubt suffering horribly from how they are trying to turn your dgcs (and also, it seems, your ds) against you with their awful lies, so to be honest not seeing them at all will actually be less hurtful.

You sound so helpful and lovely. I really hope you manage to find some solution to their living next to you.

Deb, this must hurt so much! Even if you had figured things out earlier, IMO, it would hurt, but I'm sure you're right, you wouldn't have had to experience this heartbreaking shock. So awful!

I'm still wondering if ED (estranged daughter) and ESIL have indicated anything that bothers them. I ask b/c a friend of mine had a similar experience. She provided childcare for years, while her D and SIL worked, and they had a disagreement, now and then, but nothing serious. Then when the childcare was no longer needed, she found herself CO. Her D told her she was "too controlling." Friend pointed out that she (D) didn't seem to think so all the years she (friend) was childminding. But, apparently, D said friend's behavior had been bothering her a long time, but she couldn't CO her before b/c she needed the help. Now that she didn't need the childcare anymore, according to friend, D said she was now "free" to go NC. D also complained that she told friend about this problem many times, but friend "didn't listen." Friend told me, she's not sure, she doesn't remember D saying anything about this, but thinks maybe it was during some of their arguments and she (friend) just didn't pick it up.

I'm NOT saying that you're controlling or anything like that, Deb. You sound like a wonderful GM to me. I'm just asking if there is anything you or DH have been doing that ED and ESIL object to and that you could change? B/c maybe that would solve the problem or, at least, lead to some healing. If not, then... sigh... so deeply sorry...

DH and myself have talked long and hard over the past weeks and have not been able to come up with anything.
Son says they have complained of having no privacy and of our apparent reluctance to go into their home, which seems to us a complete contradiction.
I think son was shocked when he heard them say we were a danger to the kids.
So hopefully we will not lose him too.

"Son says they have complained of having no privacy and of our apparent reluctance to go into their home, which seems to us a complete contradiction."

Yes, it seems like a contradiction to me, too. And it hardly makes you a "danger." Looks like they are just coming up w/ whatever excuse they can find (sigh). I can't imagine why though.

"I think son was shocked when he heard them say we were a danger to the kids.
So hopefully we will not lose him too."

I hope you don't lose him either. And I don't think you well, as he can see the contradictions, etc. in what ED and ESIL say about you surely.

Your poor friend Starlady. It's pretty obvious to me that her D going no contact has nothing to do with her finding her mother's behaviour controlling.

She used her mother for child care and when she was no longer needed cast her adrift. If she had really been that concerned about her mother's behaviour, she'd have withdrawn childcare earlier.

It seems to be that there's nothing the OP can do to change what her D and s.i.l. object too Starlady. She's already attended the school play rehearsal and their claim that she and her DH are a threat to their GC is obviously an out and out lie.

They've had plenty of unsupervised access already.

Debcz in more than 6 years of posting about and reading about estrangement, yours is one of the mot shocking accounts I've come across.

To say you're a danger to your GC.

I hope there is a way you can get them out. Chucky is right, not seeing them at all even though you'll miss your GS, when such vile lies and accusations are being made, is less hurtful as Mr. S. and I know from personal experience.

For goodness sake - if they wanted privacy, why in heavens name did they move into the house across the yard and why have they stayed there? As for a reluctance to come into their house, surely that’s what they would have appreciated?

Such a shame for the relationship with the grandchildren. I hope it comes right and the ED and ESiL come to their senses.