Overcomplicated

HolyHannah
The doctor could not medically specify the type of abuse without a true diagnosis of your mother.he could speculate .

Starblaze
I didn't get better , that's how we knew he was wrong.

Holyhannah it doesn't matter. The truth is not up for debate. It just is.

Forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here but I think what Bridie is getting at is that, whilst the counselling/treatment that you received "worked" for you personally Starblaze; the query that I raised was "how can our EP be "accused" of being narcissists, when they personally have, in all probability, have not been seen by a clinical psychologist?" I know for a fact that my mother was not seen by anyone other than an ordinary family GP but, then I don't believe that she was a narcissist; she was simply not a good mother. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Chewbacca
Perfectly put, some people don't need labelling they are just nasty, cruel people.eg possibly HolyHannah parent.

Don't know about anyone else's Bridie I can only speak for myself! But it seems that the term narcissistic & narcissism is bandied about quite a lot these days, especially on the estrangement threads and I was just pondering on the veracity and authenticity of its usage.

Bridie and Chewbacca narcissism is difficult to diagnose. Due to the nature of the disorder, Narcissists are unlikely to seek therapy or follow through with treatment. A person who has suffered from narcissistic abuse and has been treated by a professional therapist knows. If you haven’t been a victim of a narcissist, you just wouldn’t understand. It’s okay to not understand and ask questions, but please be careful to not invalidate another persons experience.

Just also want to add that if your dealing with a toxic and abusive person, an official diagnosis doesn’t really matter. It’s best to leave the situation.

please be careful to not invalidate another persons experience

I'm puzzled and a bit put out at your statement MamaBear. I've taken great care to couch my queries with sensitivity and respect. HolyHannah in particular has taken the time to respond with objectivity and clarity. Why would this be an invalidation of experiences?

Bridie -- It is not in any way 'mean' for a Medical professional of mine, with the qualifications He has, to make the diagnosis he did. It is absolutely invalidating my personal experience to insist that my Doctor is either unethical or incorrect as to what and who caused my mental health issues.

If my Doctor says she's a Narcissist and since I lived with her, I am going to go ahead and agree.

Chewbacca “ But it seems that the term narcissistic & narcissism is bandied about quite a lot these days, especially on the estrangement threads and I was just pondering on the veracity and authenticity of its usage.”
When you have three posters each talking about their personal experiences with narcissists, and then you write that, it sounds very invalidating. Not that any of us really needs validation from an Internet stranger. It seemed to me that you and Bridie are more intent on telling other posters they’re wrong, rather than listening, learning, and offering support and empathy.

MamaBear said, "A person who has suffered from narcissistic abuse and has been treated by a professional therapist knows. If you haven’t been a victim of a narcissist, you just wouldn’t understand."

The effects of a Narcissist parent(s) on a developing child leave specific mental injuries that a qualified professional (like mine) was able to unravel.

I'm sure they can unravel your mental health, but I would question whether it is within their remit to diagnose anyone they've not met.

MissAdventure -- If someone describes an arm with a bone sticking out of it, "compound fracture" would likely be the diagnosis even if unseen. My description and experiences + the emotional damage and mental health issues I have = Narcissistic Abuse. The person responsible was my 'mom'. It's not complex and it mostly depends on the qualifications of the Doctor in question. In my case His qualifications did allow for that.

Starblaze

I am an absolute expert on my mums behaviour. I had half a lifetime of experience. I have spent a great deal of time educating myself and understanding it, I have been to see professionals and have listened to professional advice. I've become a master at managing anxiety and not letting it slow me down and a talking myself out of depression is now a super power

If anyone wants to tell me I cannot be the victim of a narcissist.

I'd say you are right. I stopped being a victim of a narcissist years ago and I never will be again.

Not that it matters, I can call her a narcissist or the wicked witch of the west or that mad bitch from hell... The only person I would be insulting is her and she deserves it.

My mum will never be a unicorn, no matter how much I want her to be. Time has run out. Its too late for her to ever come to any kind of realisation before one of us dies.

I accept that now.

When I shared how I managed depression on another thread I was told it was psychobabble and that I hadn't suffered from depression, I was just sad-

So really all anyone can do is throw the info out there for others to have access to and use-

If they choose .. ?

rosecarmel -- I spit wine on my screen... Yes, my depression was just me being 'sad' as well. Good grief...

Clearly people do not understand what C-PTSD is... The level of sustained and prolonged abuse required to create 'it' isn't just "mild abuse" or my 'mom' being "mean".

When a Doctor like mine treats someone like Me, he could/did (with some work) put me in the correct frame of mind to come out of the FOG.

Chewbacca and others on the question of, "Can a professional diagnose someone with NPD in abstentia/from my mental health issues?"

I should have added the answer is almost always "No." and the reason is, no one usually knows a person long enough or spends enough time with them to be able to give enough viable information to a Doctor. The parent/child relationship differs in that regard because a child like me, who grew up with her behavior well into my 'adult years', has a closer perspective.

As I said, I am sure there are other full blown NPD's in my family due to the traits I saw in those people. Since I don't/didn't have a close enough relationship to those people, my Doctor would never call any other family member a Narcissist and neither would I.

It goes well beyond just "not liking someone" for Me to call/believe someone is a Narcissist... They have to behave like one for Me to believe a person is one.

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- I spit wine on my screen... Yes, my depression was just me being 'sad' as well. Good grief...

Clearly people do not understand what C-PTSD is... The level of sustained and prolonged abuse required to create 'it' isn't just "mild abuse" or my 'mom' being "mean".

When a Doctor like mine treats someone like Me, he could/did (with some work) put me in the correct frame of mind to come out of the FOG.

My history is so absolutely off the wall that it most definitely sounds fabricated- So when I shared what I thought was "sane" and got scoffed at I had to laugh to myself too because I was thinking if they only knew!

But as far as sharing goes, I always hope that some reader can vicariously walk in our shoes in their minds in order to avoid doing so real time and spare their children, too-

Starblaze

I am an absolute expert on my mums behaviour. I had half a lifetime of experience. I have spent a great deal of time educating myself and understanding it, I have been to see professionals and have listened to professional advice. I've become a master at managing anxiety and not letting it slow me down and a talking myself out of depression is now a super power

If anyone wants to tell me I cannot be the victim of a narcissist.

I'd say you are right. I stopped being a victim of a narcissist years ago and I never will be again.

Not that it matters, I can call her a narcissist or the wicked witch of the west or that mad bitch from hell... The only person I would be insulting is her and she deserves it.

My mum will never be a unicorn, no matter how much I want her to be. Time has run out. Its too late for her to ever come to any kind of realisation before one of us dies.

I accept that now.

I think my mom might have been a unicorn with an unraveled horn .. that she tried to stand up with bobby pins, barrettes and baubles half time and the other half just let it hang down over one eye, my little pony style-

rosecarmel -- "My history is so absolutely off the wall that it most definitely sounds fabricated"

I have to laugh at that because I know parts of my life are like 'that' and the other half of my life would appear "so normal" the idea that there was abuse going on sounds "fabricated".

Yes. That is why I too try to share/educate. I know I have helped Starblaze and maybe more... If I have supported just one victim or made just one abuser rethink their choices? The trickle-down could change many lives.

"I think my mom might have been a unicorn with an unraveled horn .. that she tried to stand up with bobby pins, barrettes and baubles half time and the other half just let it hang down over one eye, my little pony style."

rosecarmel -- You just described my 'mom'... Like I said, she's a 'C' student at best. My MiL? She could use her 'horn' to joust.

Mine was a donkey rolled in glitter

I am deeply sad and deeply sorry for what this discussion has become. In my experience there are those who need support to be estranged and those who want support to be estranged. Any person who has been abused needs to be estranged and deserves our utmost support every step along the way.

It is very hurtful to question a person who has received professional support about its validity. It undermines and dismisses hard work and determination to become whole again. To do so relentlessly, with no consideration for how that would make a person feel or when you are told how it feels;

A bully is a person who continues to engage in behaviour that they are aware hurts you, that wouldn't harm you or them to stop

Terms like "narcissist" may be bandied about but the term exists to fill a need. Any lay person may easily identify bullying, even the person doing it.

I deeply regret starting this discussion here. I hope some good may be found from it. I bid you a good day. These discussions move too fast and are too painful to not point out bullying and domineering behaviour as it occurs.

"By definition, invalidation is the process of denying, rejecting or dismissing someone's feelings....."

I was pondering on this so looked up the definition of invalidation. I am genuinely trying to work out how anyone can ask a question of another poster on any subject, without it being "invalidating" if they dont hold the same opinion and the disagreement is felt to be dismissive of the other persons feelings, because they dont agree.

In the above examples 3 posters were talking about their experiences of narcissistic mothers/parents. They were open about the narcissism being diagnosed "second hand" by their Dr or whoever they were working with to heal themselves. Others questioned whether that was0